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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 02:53:44 -0800 (PST), Jigsaw1695 <...@aol.com
On Nov 7, 1:30 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
A ggod gun used by a bad person.
Jigsaw
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:59:20 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 11:53, in article
e147...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com,
"Jigsaw1695" <...@aol.com
I thought you'd like the name of the gun
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 07:19:24 -0600, "hls" <...@nospam.nix
"Earl Evleth" <...@wanadoo.fr...
Well, the name of the gun was NOT "Cop Killer".
I think it is irresponsible to make a situation like this - already
bad enough - worse by resorting to this sort of tactic. Do you
want people to be more paranoid than ever, to ignite a Baptist
jihad against anyone with an Arabic name?
He also had, reportedly, a .357 S&W Magnum, which can fire a
standard .38 calibre round or the .357 Magnum round. There was
no indication that he had obtained special armor piercing cartridges
for this weapon either, although several sorts of special tactical
rounds for this weapon were made for police and military.
The .357 will fire 6 cartridges before reloading. Reloading for this weapon
can be speeded up by the use of a "clip" or speed loader (which police often
used).
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:08:55 -0800 (PST), Jigsaw1695 <...@aol.com
On Nov 7, 5:19�am, "hls" <...@nospam.nix
I font think there is a law enforcement agency in the country that
carries revolvers anymore. Most departments buy a Glock for their
officers, either 9mm or .40 caliber as a primary weapon. I lot of
officers carry a backup. The 2 most popular are the S&W Detective
Special ( .38 caliber revolver, with a 2 in inch barrell or a Walther
PPK .380.) The only problem with the Walther is that the safety has to
be switched up while most other semi-automatics require the safety to
be switched down.. It requires a lot of practice to get muscel memory
to click in.
Jigsaw
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:56:57 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 14:19, in article 0Kid...@giganews.com,
"hls" <...@nospam.nix
Lets return to the FN Five-Seven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven
The Five-Seven (marketed as "Five-seveN"[7]) is a semi-automatic pistol in
5.7x28mm manufactured by FN Herstal.[11] The weapon's name refers to its
5.7 mm bullet diameter.
The 5.7x28mm cartridge was originally created by FN in the early 1990s for
use in the FN P90 personal defense weapon.[3][4][5] The Five-Seven pistol
was subsequently created by FN in the late 1990s as a side arm using the
same cartridge.[3][4]
The weapon's characteristics have made it popular in law enforcement SWAT
roles[12], where criminals wearing body armor may be encountered.
***
Now somebody tried to down play the 5.7 as a 0.22 and only suitable for
plinking.
The FN Five-Seven has up to a 30 bullet magazine carrying bullets more
powerful than the standard long rife 0.22
Next the idea was trying to be sold that only special ammunition
will penetrate body armour and that this is not available in the
US. SS190 ammunition is restricted but the question remains
of a black market.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144953907
Has a nice photo and one can see immediately they don't resemble
22 longs
I first ran into .22 fitted to a larger cartridge in 1945, when
a friend of my father's had adapted 22 to a 30 caliber sized
cartridge. He had developed a weapon to shot them.
Sort of a mouse head of a bullet with the body of an elephant.
by the way there is a web site for this weapon
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/
Enjoy
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:11:03 -0800 (PST), Jigsaw1695 <...@aol.com
On Nov 7, 8:56�am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Actually, you seem to have forgotton about the .45 semi auto.
Jigsaw
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:37:21 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 19:11, in article
6386...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com,
"Jigsaw1695" <...@aol.com
a .22 at the speed of light is more dangerous
That caliber is favored by Mafia hit men.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:44:57 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 14:19, in article 0Kid...@giganews.com,
"hls" <...@nospam.nix
A lot of headlines used the term "Cop Killer" for the gun
including a UK paper http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ylq4vzf
saving <using a gun nicknamed the "cop killer."
The key point, however, is that he was able to get off
around 100 rounds, having reloaded. So the real issue
is being able to fire this much and kill and wound
so many in a sort time. The enormous increase
in fire power occurred when hand weapons switched
in their majority from being revolvers to semi-automatics
and some with the possibility of having extended magazines
holding more than 7 to 9 bullets. That revolution
also occurred with an increase in caliber from the
common .22 semi (I had one, a Ruger) to much larger
calibers. The huge surge in homicides in the US which
reached a peak in 1992 rode on this arms race to death.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 04:30:42 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 7, 7:44 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
And there was an outbreak of Flat Feet in France starting sometime in
the mid-70's.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:01:50 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:59:20 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.frwrote:
So you feel it was not the person but the gun???? Would you feel
better if he was in charge of the Ft Hood Ordnance Disposal Combat
Support Company, and had used C4?? The point is he had INTENT to
murder. Following through on his intent resulted in murder... which
makes HIM a murderer, and not his weapon.
Planet Visitor II
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 03:35:45 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 8, 1:01 am, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
In Earl's world gun's can shoot themselves. They can also read your
mind and make you do bad things.
Really.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:04:17 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 12:35, in article
fc4f...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
In fact it happens, I posted on one a while back.
Here it is again, since you did not read it first
time around
***
Gun control (or lack thereof) takes on new meaning at Florida shooting range
October 5, 2009 | 11:47 am
Guns don't kill people; people kill people.
That has been a popular refrain among opponents of stricter gun control.
Well, it turns out that guns -- all by themselves -- can at least injure
people.
In a bizarre incident at a Lakeland, Fla., practice facility on Saturday, a
9-millimeter handgun began shooting on its own while spinning in circles.
Three people were injured and one, a 29-year-old tourist visiting the range
with a friend, was struck in the shoulder and throat and as of Sunday night
remained hospitalized in stable condition.
Bullets started flying moments after Michael Thourot had fired and reloaded
the weapon, and set it down for his wife to use.
Sherri Thourot was struck in the back of her right arm and the bullet exited
in the biceps area. Her bone was shattered. Michael Thourot was struck in
the left hand. Gary Flynn was the unlucky tourist.
Sherri Thourot told the St. Petersburg Times she first noticed that her
husband had been hit. "But I couldn't tell how bad," she said. "Then I
realized I had been hit. My hand was bent forward and I couldn't move my
arm."
The husband and wife were test-firing their new weapon at Saddle Creek
Shooting Range.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:06:27 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 9, 8:04 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Wow! Red Herring for dinner! Thanks!
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 01:38:39 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 7, 4:30 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
see my comments below.
Another thing, it's only a COP KILLER (what a stupid lable BTW..)
because of the specific ammo used, not necessarilly the gun in and of
itself. They make civilian rounds for that gun, but they also make
armor piercing rounds as well. That being said I'm not certain what
type of ammo he was using.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:12:45 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 10:38, in article
30c0...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
As for the name, police associations complained about it. Therefore
calling it a COP Killer is justified by them as potential targets.
The US has long been in a domestic arms race between the cops
an the robbers.
*****
Fort Hood Shooter Used 'Cop Killer' Armor-Piercing Handgun
By The Brady Campaign ,
WASHINGTON --- Four and a half years ago, three police organizations in the
United States issued advisories to warn officers that a new handgun
introduced into the U.S. market by a Belgium manufacturer of military
firearms represented a unique threat to the safety of police officers.
It was a handgun that was designed to fire bullets through body armor. A
U.S. Senator and a U.S. Congressman urged a legal ban on civilian possession
of the firearm, which began being referred to as the ³cop killer gun.²
The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily
concealable, and was designed as a military sidearm to complement military
rifles made by the same company. One law enforcement expert referred to the
Five-Seven as ³an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.² While no police
officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it
may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers.
Today, several news sources are reporting that it was the Five-Seven that
Nidal M. Hasan used in his shooting attack at Fort Hood in Texas Thursday.
In January 2005, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP),
International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO) and the National
Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE), released their
alert to the police community at a press conference, joined by U.S. Senator
Charles Schumer and Congressman Elliott Engel of New York.
When first launched for civilian sales, company officials wrote on the
company website that ³enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be
effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as
the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.² That language has since been
removed by FN Herstal.
In early 2005, Brady Campaign staff purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun
dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police
Kevlar vest. As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization
leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, with its
dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, works to enact and enforce
sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:31:38 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Because police associations get to define what things are?
It's a good idea not to proliferate more and more capable weapons.
But this isn't that.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 04:56:32 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 7, 5:12 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
And only with certain types of ammo, which THEY DONT SELL to non-
military, LEO..
Million Loser March
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:02:16 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 13:56, in article
df91...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
He is military.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:32:18 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
I don't think that you just show a military ID and you can buy a
Stinger missile.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:39:21 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 19:32, in article 4AF5...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
There is a prime example of an American lack of the
sense of proportion.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:33:16 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
The point, Earl, is that items that are restricted sale to military
only are not available to people in the military by just showing a
military ID. As we've seen, the shooter had no reason to get
restricted ammo because he was going after a soft target. That's
what terrorism is all about.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:35:11 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 22:33, in article 4AF5...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
Reason as we use it was not involved in this case.
The basic question is why a weapon, which has the possibility
of having a 30 shot magazine is allowed to be sold to
the ordinary citizen?
The answer is that the nuttier among us what any weapon
they can get hold of, including 50 caliber machine guns.
These tools of death are symbols of power of life and
death over others. As a Walter Mitty type you should
understand that.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:23:18 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
There's not a lot of "reason" involved in terrorism in the first
place. But clearly they put a lot of thought into it.
It would only make a marginal difference. Why not just buy two with
20 round clips (or 10 round clips if you want to limit it to that)?
Clips can be changed very quickly and with a backup weapon, there
isn't really a lot of worry about when. Certainly when attacking
soft targets like this.
He was taken down by the first person, it seems, who engaged him.
That says something. She hit him with four rounds. He didn't die.
He hit her with three rounds (or more, they said in the cite "at
least") and she didn't die. It would be useful to know in what
circumstances the 13 died, how many times they were hit and where.
The man portability of a 50 cal comes into question, Earl. Full
auto weapons are restricted in the US. People can often own them,
but they are restricted. They are also almost never involved in
crime, at least in the US. If you look at Mexico, the government is
simply not in control of Mexico. The drug gangs are essentially
taking on the government for control of Mexico itself. That isn't a
question in the US even if there are locations where it isn't safe
for the police to routinely go.
We've been through this before, Earl. You call me a Walter Mitty
type when I don't go on about myself at all. You, however, do
prattle on about yourself. I conclude, therefore, that the Walter
Mitty comment is projection on your part.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:39:58 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 19:23, in article 4AF7...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
Luckily in the sense she had a femoral artery severed
Not particularly interesting, just morbid curiosity on your part.
They probably were hit in a vital spot, the others less so.
That all is a matter of luck.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:11:20 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
She was hit four times.
Morbid curiosity? We are discussing the lethality of a specific
weapon. We have have about 50 victims to gain insight into that
weapon's lethality. We note that about a third of the total number
died. We should ask what differences exist in the ones who lived
and those who didn't.
To some extent, that's possible, however it should be noted that a
rifle can be far more lethal more often. At close range, a shotgun
is usually lethal.
Was he shooting the people when they were down? Given that they
were unarmed in the first place, it's not without reason to ask
such a question.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:09:27 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 20:11, in article 4AF7...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
More so if loaded with buck shut, less so with bird shot.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:02:34 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
At point blank range, it's not going to much matter.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:28:37 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 18:02, in article 4AF8...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
One would guess that a threatened person would not
allow that threat to get close.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:33:16 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
If you are using a shotgun as a military weapon, I would expect you
to use buckshot type loads. I'm just saying that getting hit from a
few feet away with birdshot or buckshot, the damage would be
extensive.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:47:58 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 18:33, in article 4AF8...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
A theoretical question, you continue to function in the virtual
world. If the shotgun is being used against human beings
you intend to kill, you will not employ birdshot. If you are
farmer Jones going after some chicken poachers you employ
rock salt and shot for their asses as they run off.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:18:51 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Even if that's all you have because your country's regulations
preclude access to buckshot or handguns or whatever?
I very much doubt that you can legally shoot people who are maybe
trying take chickens. That's a disproportionate response.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:46:10 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 19:18, in article 4AF8...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
I don't know what restriction on shot gun ammunitions exists.
One thing for certain, you have to have a permit
In the rural south you are talking non-sense.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:12:28 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Rock salt is what is nonsense. I found a webpage where they test
this and as I suggested, you either kill the person, because you
are right there with the barrel in his belly or you do nothing but
make heap big sound. I can't post the pictures, so you'll have to
go to the cite: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm
#begin quote
Lots of folks ask me, "Have you ever tried rock salt in a shotgun
shell? Would this be a good load for personal defense?"
We have seen it done in the movies. I remember an episode of "The
Rifleman", where Lucas McCain shot some bad guys with a load of
rock salt. I never understood why, but guess it had something to do
with script writers needing a new story line every week.
I've also heard that some folks used to use this load to run off
"bums" and beggars in the old days, during the Depression.
So, would it actually work?
Only one way to find out.
#end quote
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33_3.htm
#begin quote
Lessons learned:
1. At 20 yards, you might scare a dog or some other animal, but you
sure wouldn't break the skin.
2. At 10 yards, you might break the skin with a couple of grains,
but nothing very serious.
3. At 12 feet, you might get the desired effect, if the desired
effect is to "burn" the target with the rock salt.
4. At 4 feet, you might cause a wound requiring a visit to a
hospital for a human, or maybe death to a small animal.
5. Movie plots that show someone "burning" a bad guy at
across-the-yard distances are hogwash.
6. Rock salt makes a pitiful personal defense load, as if we didn't
already know that.
#end quote
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 12:20:35 +0100, "Happy99" <...@bigfoot.com
"Mike" <...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 7, 4:30 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
I guess you wouldn't want to point out the fact that FN (Fabrique
Nationale) is a BELGIAN gun company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrique_Nationale_de_Herstal
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:00:50 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 10:35, in article
616a...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
But sold in the USA under the "inspiring" name of "Cap Killer".
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:28:43 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
They don't sell the gun under the name "Cap Killer" or "Cop
Killer", Earl. The targets in this shooting were not wearing body
armour, other than perhaps the police. The woman officer was hit
three times. She didn't die:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9BQBRSO0&show_article=1
#begin quote
Munley was hit at least three times in the exchangetwice through
the left leg and once in her right wrist. Hasan was hit four times.
#end quote
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:38:06 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 19:28, in article 4AF5...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
It is certainly bought by street thugs for that reason;
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:41:30 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
It's bought by street thugs? How much does this weapon cost? After
you murder someone, you have to get rid of the weapon. If this is
expensive, and it is, I suspect it's not a bus-ta-cap type rod.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:42:09 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 22:41, in article 4AF5...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
About $1000. But they are stolen too
***
Bainbridge Georgia News (BainbridgeGA.com)
Local News
"Cop Killer" Gun Bust
By
Mar 1, 2007, 03:18
Good ol' fashion alert Public Safety police work took another bad guy off
the street and just as importantly a dangerous stolen handgun Wednesday
night.
33 second video of Sgt David Cutchen bringing in Truman Butler
then
Officer Aaron Brown brings in Clarence Tatum.
About 1:30 am, Sgt David Cutchen saw a Jeep run a stop sign at Independent
and Cemetery Streets and made a stop. Seeing the back seat passenger moving
around suspiciously, he called for backup. Captain Pat Thomas and Officer
Aaron Brown responded.
The jeep tag was run and came back as suspended registration, no insurance
and improper tag. The driver, 33 year old Clarence Edward Tatum, Jr was
arrested.
Recovered Handgun
In a search of the vehicle they discovered a 5.7 caliber Herstal
semi-automatic handgun. The back seat passenger, Truman Butler, had tried
to hide the gun under his seat. The handgun was found to be a pistol stolen
in the Southern Trading and Pawn burglary in August of 2006.
The gun had a 20 round clip containing bullets that are sometimes called
"cop killer" because of their ability to pierce bullet proof vests.
30 year old Truman Vincent Butler IV of Bainbridge was arrested for
receiving stolen property and possession of a handgun by a convicted felon.
He is also wanted in Michigan for possession of a handgun by a convicted
felon.
You have seen too many movies again.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:56:35 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
I trust the ammo costs more too. That's maybe half again to twice
what a normal quality handgun costs.
You can't refute what I say so you attack me for knowing too much.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:25:22 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 18:56, in article 4AF7...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
I refute it, don't tell me what I can not refute!
A criminal will not toss out a $1000 gun. You've seen Godfather I
too often.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:03:43 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
1) Why commit murder with a $1000 gun?
2) The criminal has no reason to toss the gun unless it's been used
in a murder (or similar). $1000 is nothing compared to the exposure
of murder, therefore he would toss the gun, even if he'd not seen
Godfather I enough times.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:07:03 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 20:03, in article 4AF7...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
The cost of the gun is secondary, its firepower primary. I would
guess that it is a excellent weapon for a drive by
Note that criminals are not among the best and the brightest.
Those in prison have an average IQ of 90. And they are "now" people,
often act without regard of the future, the more sociopathic
them think they will never get caught.
The FN five seven is a prestige weapons and service the same
role as a large screen TV does with you, having something
bigger than those whom you are competing with.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:10:18 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Why? A drive by is only a few seconds, so the weight of the ammo
isn't important. In fact, I doubt that a full clip would usually be
used. I would say a cheap AK-47 would be perfect. But how often are
they used? Not very.
Aren't sociopathic personalities more likely to be above 100 on the
IQ grade?
The gun in question is actually smaller and lighter than a Nine,
using ammo that is but half the weight. People are often concerned
about the stopping power of the 9mm and thus might use 10mm
chambered weapons. But this goes in a different direction, towards
lighter and faster. Since handguns are (sensibly) used in
engagements at close range, a smaller and faster bullet is not
going to lose its energy enough to matter (as it would in a long
range sniper weapon). So high speed is fine. But there are
problems, of course, with too much penetration. This matters to
good people who don't want to hurt innocent people and whose only
goal is stopping the bad guy.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:35:34 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 18:10, in article 4AF8...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde { 'by
a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.uk
I personally could empty a 9 shot clip from a semi in a couple of seconds.
A long gun it difficult to fire from a car, a pistol is not an 20
shots allows one to effectively spray the intended target
No, not that I have heard of. Of the criminals I have met and talked
with the terrorists (Basque and Iranian) were the most intelligent.
The common criminals do very stupid things and get caught.
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 04:58:14 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 7, 5:00 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Not really....;>)))
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:03:03 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 13:58, in article
9fe7...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
True, it is a nickname for what it does.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 04:25:52 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 7, 7:03 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
No one goes around calling it a 'Cop Killer'. Except for your
ocassional doofus on the internet.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:08:04 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 13:25, in article
9636...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
***
Well it made it into the news services overseas--
"De F.N. 5.7 staat in de Verenigde Staten dan ook bekend als de 'cop killer
gun'."
Moorden op Fort Hood gepleegd met Belgisch wapen
07/11 In de Verenigde Staten is er commotie ontstaan rond het vuurwapen
waarmee legerpsychiater Nidal Hassan donderdag 13 militairen doodschoot op
de Texaanse legerbasis Fort Hood. Hasan pleegde de moorden met een F.N. 5.7
mm die in de Belgische wapenfabriek in Herstal gemaakt wordt.
Toen het wapen vijf jaar geleden op de Amerikaanse markt werd gebracht,
wilden politievakbonden en verscheidene politici de verkoop van de F.N.
verbieden. Op de website van F.N. Herstal stond namelijk te lezen dat de
munitie van het vuurwapen vanop een afstand van 200 meter moeiteloos
kogelvrije vesten kon doorboren. De F.N. 5.7 staat in de Verenigde Staten
dan ook bekend als de 'cop killer gun'. F.N. heeft zijn website ondertussen
al aangepast.
Het vuurwapen is het favoriete pistool van de Mexicaanse drugkartels aan het
worden. Volgens werknemers in Amerikaanse wapenwinkels kunnen soldaten
zonder strafblad zonder veel problemen aan het pistool geraken.
***
And 67,800 google hits for "cop killer gun"
Obviously the gun nuts hate the name. That alone brings joy to my heart
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:36:48 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
When the flush of a new-born sun fell first on Eden's green and
gold,
Our father Adam sat under the Tree and scratched with a stick in
the mould;
And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his
mighty heart,
Till the Devil whispered behind the leaves, "It's pretty, but is it
Art?"
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:47:45 +0100, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Rudyard Kipling, "The Conundrum of the Workshops"
Donna Evleth
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:19:51 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Yes, that is the case:
"In August Rudyard's listlessness called for another series of
major and
very unpleasant medical examinations.... He later joked ... 'If
this is
what Oscar Wilde went to prison for, he ought to have got the
Victoria
Cross.'", Andrew Lycett, "Rudyard Kipling"
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 07:11:00 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 8, 8:08 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
A doofus term fitting for a doofus liberal.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:15:05 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 8/11/09 16:11, in article
be20...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
Mike, this really is too complicated for you to understand.
Once a gun is designated a "cop killer", the nickname will stick
After all, Mike is not your real name, Michael is.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:30:29 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 8, 10:15 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
It's all marketing-headline-bullshit. Kinda like calling an 'illegal
alien' a 'migrant worker' or some other dumb, incorrect term.
I guess people like you eat it up tho...;
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:55:30 -0800 (PST), "PJ O'Donovan" <...@aol.com
<De F.N. 5.7 staat in de Verenigde Staten dan ook bekend als de 'cop
killer
gun'."
Moorden op Fort Hood gepleegd met Belgisch wapen
07/11 In de Verenigde Staten is er commotie ontstaan rond het
vuurwapen
waarmee legerpsychiater Nidal Hassan donderdag ....snip....
Pasted by the anti American moron Evleth
A dose of reality on this issue at http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/thank-goodness-for-cop-killer-weapons/2/
for the English readers among us:
Excerpts:
"Thank Goodness for ‘Cop Killer’ Weapons
For once, the media's ignorance and fact-free hype regarding firearms
may have served to actually save lives.
...ABC News and the Telegraph (and, yes, even Brady once again,
recycling the term and misleading claims they did so much to create)
are once again reveling in articles shouting about the evil power
contained in Major Hasan’s “cop killer” gun. But the simple fact of
the matter is that there is good reason to believe that at least some
of those wounded in Thursday’s shooting are alive today because of the
5.7 cartridge’s dubious capabilities.
....No rational person would ever wish for our soldiers to be
attacked, but the simple fact of the matter is that Hasan’s reliance
on a gun the uneducated media told him was a powerful “cop killer”
quite possibly saved lives at Fort Hood. If the same victims had been
hit with 155-180 grain .40 S&W or 185-230 grain .45ACP hollow points,
their wounds would likely have been far more severe than the wounds
they suffered from even a fragmenting 40 grain VMAX bullet in the most
commonly available 5.7 cartridge.
The American media has a long and ignoble history of firearms
ignorance often based upon the propaganda of anti-gun organizations.
Finally, if but for once, that ignorance and fact-free hype may have
served to actually save lives."
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:37:27 +0100, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Why did you post a long message in Dutch, which I suspect nobody here reads?
Donna Evleth
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:21:31 -0800 (PST), Frank <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 6:37 pm, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Well, I did !
Translated : ik heb het gelezen.
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:17:52 +0100, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Fortunately I stated it as a "suspicion" and not as an absolute fact:-)
Donna Evleth
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:42:43 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 10/11/09 13:17, in article C71F...@wanadoo.fr, "Donna
Evleth" <...@wanadoo.fr
Parts of the sentences were not hard to figure out.
Like
"favoriete pistool van de Mexicaanse drugkartels"
which in fact was news to me.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:18:38 +0000, John Rennie <...@talktalk.net
'Cap Killer'? Really?
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 07:09:19 -0600, "hls" <...@nospam.nix
"John Rennie" <...@talktalk.net
No, and not even "Cop Killer". No gun is sold under that name. The
gun does not pierce body armor...the bullet does.
These cartridges have been referred to as "cop killers" because
they have the ability to penetrate body armor. These were made to fit
more than one calibre firearm, and are normally available only to
police and military.
There is no corroboration that this madman used armor piercing bullets,
but it wouldnt have made any difference.. Few or none on the base would
have been wearing Kevlar vests.
I am going to assume until I learn differently that this was the act of one
man, probably deranged, rather than an Islamic attack on the people of
America.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:34:07 +0000, John Rennie <...@talktalk.net
Let's hope yours is not a minority view
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:47:06 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 7/11/09 14:34, in article Oaid...@giganews.com,
"John Rennie" <...@talktalk.net
It probably won't be. What the attack is not, is a conspire terrorist
attack by a small group. But religion played a role in the attack
and that will be grabbed and ran with.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:53:28 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:47:06 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.frwrote:
That because reality trumps fantasy. There is actually nothing to
be said about it other than Islam "explains it." Everything else is
only making excuses for Islam. Which the left loves to do.
Planet Visitor II
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:51:35 +0000, John Rennie <...@talktalk.net
All the left, Jim? Are you including the agnostic
and the atheist left? Don't keep on making these
sweeping nonsensical statements - they ruin the very
few effective arguments you deploy.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:02:57 +0800, thang ornithorhynchus <...@spitzola.com.org.net
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 07:09:19 -0600, "hls" <...@nospam.nix
Nice.
thang
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:55:30 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:02:57 +0800, thang ornithorhynchus
<...@spitzola.com.org.net
It wasn't an "Islamic attack." More precisely, it was an attack by a
man because of his _Islamic beliefs_.
Sadly, this happens far too often.
Planet Visitor II
>thang
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On 08 Nov 2009 11:50:34 GMT, "yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)" <...@yahoo.com
On 2009-11-08, James 'Racist Lunatic' Noles <...@earthlink.net
{ snip irrelevant nonsense }
Nazi Spastic Noles, didn't you say you were leaving..?
Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
'The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones
who attacked us in America on September the 11th'
(George W. Bush, 12 July 2007)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:33:03 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 8, 12:55 am, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
And what is the difference?
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:52:49 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 2:33, in article
cad6...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
The term "Islamic attack" makes it sound like a general attack, that
others of the same type are coming along. The motives of the
attack are still being worked out, did he have rational ones or is
his being Moslem and added feature.
Almost all mass murders are committed by males. So one can imagine
a feminist group playing up the fact that the assailant was
male, acting in typical male fashion with his phallic symbols
firing away and was brought down by a brave woman.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 03:33:55 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 9, 2:52 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
But wouldn't you agree that an 'Islamic attack' would be motivated by
'Islamic beliefs'?
A woman with a gun, yes.
Are you going to make fun of her too?
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:31:37 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 12:33, in article
abba...@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
She was an duty police woman.
Fortunately the cop killer gun did not kill her.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:05:40 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 9, 7:31 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
She got shot twice in the legs if I remember correctly.
Them gun nuts are tough huh?
;>/
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:15:00 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
That hit may have been one bullet, what I've read hasn't made it
clear. The weapon may have excessive penetration. I wonder if there
are bullets specifically for personal defence for it, that is that
would not be legal in warfare.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:49:59 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 9/11/09 20:05, in article
fee4...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "Mike"
<...@yahoo.com
What a crock, if you are shot in the head you are dead,
if you receive leg wounds you may be able to function
longer unless the bullet shatters the thigh. As it was
she had a damage femoral artery and bled a lot, it
would have killed her if a bystander had not applied
a tourniquet.
So being tough is bull shit, being lucky is better.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:12:01 -0800 (PST), Mike <...@yahoo.com
On Nov 9, 2:49 pm, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
She took fire and survived.
Unlike a 4f fatass who can't even see his own toes.
And your inexperience counts for zilch....
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:50:28 -0800 (PST), Kurt Nicklas <...@bellsouth.net
On Nov 9, 7:31 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
'Cop killer gun', Earl? Just what makes it a 'cop killer'?
Are you aware that the type of ammunition used may actually
have *saved* lives?
I'm betting your ignorance is as broad as your bigotry is deep.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:40:24 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
Planet Visitor II <...@4ax.com:
Just like Eric Rudolph made his attacks because
of his Christian beliefs.
The problem is not Islam, but religion.
"I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate
is good. Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical
duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We
don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-- Randall Terry, devout Christian and pro-life founder of
Operation Rescue
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:58:19 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:40:24 -0600, Mitchell Holman
<...@comcast.net
Rubbish. We are not examining murders in general. We are examining
the murders committed at Fort Hood on last Thursday. Please try to
stay focused and not make excuses for the core reason behind those
murders. We know that people commit murder. We know that people
commit murder for religious reasons. We also know that in the 21st
Century Islam is far and away more responsible for murder in the name
of religion than any other religion. Murders committed on 9/11. In
London. In Madrid. In Bali. The school children slaughtered in
Russia. The French Embassy in Mauritania. Muslim suicide bombers in
Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Lebanon. Rockets shot indiscriminately
toward innocent civilians in Israel. Muslim slaughters in Africa, the
Philippines. The riots in Europe over cartoons ... etc.. .etc... etc.
ad infinitum.
But that is beside the point and I only mention it to dissuade you
that Christianity in the 21st Century is a violent and murderous
religion. I'm opposed to all religion. But we are now talking about
MURDER in the name of religion at Ft Hood last Thursday. The
explanation for those murders is in one word -- ISLAM. Christianity
or any other religion or lack of a religion had NOTHING to do with
it. Make no mistake about it... and make no excuses for it.
Planet Visitor II
Dr. Ismail Radwan made it clear that the classical Hamas ideology had
not changed, including its continued incorporation of extremist
Islamic beliefs into Hamas ideology and policy. He reiterated:
1. The Hour the Islamic Resurrection and End of Time is literally
dependent on the killing of Jews by Muslims.
2. The remaining Jews will unsuccessfully attempt to hide, as the
rocks and trees will expose them, calling out "there is a Jew behind
me, kill him!"
3. "Palestine
will be liberated through the rifle," a euphemism
meaning that Israel will be destroyed through violence.
See --
http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Radwan300307.asx
Watch the video and tell me there is a difference between that Muslim
Imam and Hitler's rants against the Jews.
These are the people you support and make excuses for, Mitchell.
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:57:25 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
Planet Visitor II <...@4ax.com:
Funny you mention the Christian Hitler and his
Christian attacks on the Jews.
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and
Savior as a fighter."
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with
the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against
the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to
positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to
protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights"
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops
"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that,
as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His
blessing to our work and our action"
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937
"God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its
existence we are defending His work. In vowing ourselves
to one another, we are entitled to stand before the
Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing."
-Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945
Islam does not have a monopoly on murderous
religious fanatics.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:28:38 -0800 (PST), "PJ O'Donovan" <...@aol.com
<"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and
Savior as a fighter."
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
Holeman
Just another area of commonality between Hitler and Obama, Holeman.
"Barry" Obama:
"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the
redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that
that
faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life.
But
most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding
the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of
these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say,
but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of
these
issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey.
Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my
conduct and my values and my ideals."
But he also said this, Holeman:
"B. Hussein" Obama:
From 'Dreams of my Father' ,"The person who made me proudest of all,
though, was [half brother] Roy .. He converted to Islam."
From 'Dreams of my Father', "In Indonesia, I had spent two years at a
Muslim school"
"I studied the Koran.."
From 'Audacity of Hope: "Lolo (Obama's step father) followed a brand
of Islam ...."I looked to Lolo for guidance".
From 'The Audacity Of Hope, "I will stand with the Muslims should the
political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Tell us what you think represents the "real" Obama, Holeman.
We won't hold our breath for your answer, Holeman.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:15:50 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:57:25 -0600, Mitchell Holman
<...@comcast.net
While Hitler wasn't Christian - is your argument supposed to explain
why Muslims are committing murder today, or an excuse for them to
commit murder today? Trying to put the _blame on Hitler_ for the
murders that Muslims are committing today is pretty pathetic,
Mitchell, even for you. And makes even your past support for Muslim
murderers pale.
Well, gee... is that the defense Major Hasan is going to offer?? Let's
see... Major Hasan's lawyer will remind the court that there
were two or three lunatics who have murdered abortion doctors,
while calling it Christianity, and thus we must excuse Major Hasan for
murdering 13 innocent people, calling out "Allahu Akbar," in the name
of Islamic jihad.
Oh, wait... a "Christian" murderer is now on trial for murder.
No excuse there.
How about the 150 Muslims murdered by other Muslims last week
in Baghdad? How about the 24 Muslims murdered by other Muslims
yesterday in Pakistan?
Islam may not a monopoly on murderous religious fanatics but they
sure look like they are coming closer to it every day. Considering
9/11, London, Madrid, Bali, just about everywhere in Africa... etc...
etc... etc. And the monstrous killing of Muslim by Muslim in Iraq and
Afghanistan.
Planet Visitor II
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:26:35 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
Planet Visitor II <...@4ax.com:
Repost anything I said "blaming Hitler for the murders
Muslims are committing today"
Read the notestream.
YOU are the one who first mentioned Hitler and said "tell
me there is a difference between that Muslim Imam and Hitler's
rants against the Jews."
Another Noles fabrication.
Who is talking about excusing what murderer?
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On 12 Nov 2009 15:07:43 GMT, "yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)" <...@yahoo.com
On 2009-11-12, James 'Racist Lunatic' Noles <...@earthlink.net
'We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar
as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and
moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the
standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a
particular confession....'
(Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named
the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP))
<http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm
You. Fucking. Dolt.
{ snip to deprive Naz' of 'the oxygen of publicity' }
Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
'The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones
who attacked us in America on September the 11th'
(George W. Bush, 12 July 2007)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:36:32 +0000, John Rennie <...@talktalk.net
Or of cold blooded liars like Hitler, Mitch.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:31:34 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Hitler said whatever it took to get Hitler what he wanted. It's
also true that Hitler told the workers that he was on their side
and then told the business owners he was on their side. It took a
long time before Hitler was forced to make an open choice. It
should be clear in hindsight if not fore that Hitler was only
interested in Hitler.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:49 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 11/11/09 10:36, in article ga6d...@giganews.com,
"John Rennie" <...@talktalk.net
All the Moslems I have talked with say that the
acts of the terrorists is not "True Islam"
which in their view is non-violent.
I did not argue with them about the historical
facts. But the question remains is there
a "true Islam" or a "true Christianity"?
Have their histories been equally as violent
and murderous or does one outscore the other?
Although Moslems will debate the "true" part
I am not sure that Christians think much at all
about it.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:36:15 -0500, Planet Visitor II <...@earthlink.net
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:49 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.frwrote:
IMO, history exists to educate us as to what we did wrong or right in
the past so we might not repeat it if it was wrong and repeat it if it
was right. Not only as individuals, but as an entire species, as part
of evolution.
That being said... Islam has learned nothing from their past
atrocities or the past Christian atrocities. Islam continues to
believe in "holy war." War for nothing but the sake of religion.
So one either believes that "holy war" is "right" in today's world or
that it is not, based upon the "holy wars" of the past. IMO, far too
many non-Muslims seem to support the argument of Islamic "holy
war" being far from "wrong," but actually a sort of "revenge" by Islam
over events in the past. A "we've got it coming to us," kind of
deprecation of western civilization mentality.
Finally, there is no question that Islam in the Middle East sees the
extermination of the Jews and the state of Israel as a "holy war,"
and a "holy obligation" of all Muslims, and there are also many
European non-Muslims who actually buy into the argument that
such a "holy war" is totally valid because of a claim that _the Jews
stole sacred land given to the Arabs by Allah for eternity_.
Planet Visitor II
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:20:37 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 12/11/09 8:36, in article crdn...@4ax.com,
"Planet Visitor II" <...@earthlink.net
Jihad, does not mean holy war as such but used in the Koran
as the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of Allah"
In fact it has several meanings, one of which has to do
with warfare.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:50:06 +0100, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
The basic problem IMO is that both sides believe their God gave the sacred
land to them for eternity. It is a very poor idea to turn God into a real
estate agent.
Donna Evleth
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On 12 Nov 2009 17:15:31 GMT, "yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)" <...@yahoo.com
On 2009-11-12, Donna Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
Well to destroy completely this completely fatuous argument all too often
put forward by you, Reichstag Rennie and Earl, why not take religion out of
the equation, and replace it with 'ancienneté'?
Oh, look ... the Jews still win. We've been here longer than anyone else.
Israel is Jewish, Donna. Whether you look at it from a religious,
historical or legal point of view, this land is ours, and will remain so
for the rest of time.
Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
'The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones
who attacked us in America on September the 11th'
(George W. Bush, 12 July 2007)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:27:53 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 12/11/09 18:15, in article 0085...@news.astraweb.com,
"yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)" <...@yahoo.com
about 80% of it is.
Palestine, however is about 50/50
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:35:51 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
You've had this nonsense stuffed down your gullet too many times to
count. Hitler was not a Christian.
When you stoop to attributing to Christianity the likes of Hitler,
you are just without any sense, Holman.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:57:37 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
The posted proof you deleted because it proves you
wrong...well, proves you wrong.
From the "Is There A Difference" file.....
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because
such a school has no religious instruction and
a general moral instruction without a religious
foundation is built on air; consequently, all
character training and religion must be derived
from faith.... We need believing people."
--Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933
vs..................
"I hope I live to see the day when we won't have
any public schools. The churches will have taken
them over again and Christians will be running them.
What a happy day that will be!"
- Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:58:22 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
You are lying again. Furthermore, I simply trimmed irrelevanceis.
I'm not required to repost your entire post.
Cite to where you go this.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:54:17 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk:
"irrelevanceis."
From our resident spelling guru Bonde.
Sheesh...........
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:59:50 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
1) I've never once claimed I was a "spelling guru".
2) You seem to think that spell flaming is fine for you but any
comments by me, no matter how kind hearted, are out of bounds
attacks.
3) The word is "irrelevancies". The difference between what I
apparently typed and the correct form is simply a typo where the
'i' and the 'e' are switched. This obviously is a typo, so claiming
that I can't spell "irrelevancies" is absurd.
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:13:14 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 11/11/09 14:57, in article
Xns9...@216.196.97.130, "Mitchell Holman"
<...@comcast.net
In the sense that "Hitler attended a Catholic school located in an
11th-century Benedictine cloister".
I would say that culturally he was Catholic and many of the
Nazi ceremonies were copies of Christian ceremonies.
His anti-Semitism was based on bastardized Christian
anti-Semitism based on the Jews killing Christian babies
and drinking their blood, etc. His anti-Semitism can
from a Christian soil.
Bill might argue that he was not authentically Christian,
his behavior showed that. The problem is with word "authentically"
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:29:57 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
So someone who went to church in his youth and who even went to a
school run by a church is of that religion for their entire lives?
I've been back and forth with this subject with Holman, who
promptly forgets. Here's what Wiki currently says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:51:57 -0600, Mitchell Holman <...@comcast.net
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk:
"As I've told you probably a hundred times now, I want you
to quote from the link whatever you think makes your point.
Why do you think I should read an entire webpage to figure
out what you might possibly mean? That is ridiculous."
Bill Bonde, Aug 22 2009, explaining why he deletes URL's
without quotes, in between posts (like the above) where HE
posts URL's without quotes.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:23:44 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
I wondered if you'd spout off, Holman. I didn't quote from it
because I felt that taking any of it without the entirety would not
be a fair characterization. I also didn't make claims based on the
text. I didn't say that it proves this or that, I just offered it.
But how about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs#Adolf_Hitler_an d_Ariosophy
#begin quote
According to an online article from the Simon Wiesenthal
Center,[71] the influence of the anti-Judaic, Gnostic and root race
teachings of H.P. Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy, and the
adaptations of her ideas by her followers, constituted a popularly
unacknowledged but decisive influence over the developing mind of
Hitler.
#end quote
I suspect that the Pope would frown upon such nonsense.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:24:27 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 11/11/09 21:29, in article 4AFB...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
Core values. Hitler was Austrian. Today (5%) and certainly then Austria
had few protestant and has to be considered culturally, like France,
Catholic. He obviously rejected Christianity but for me the issue
is his cultural foundation, what shaped his attitudes.
He presented himself as a protector of cultural traditions
"He used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church
leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity"
He himself stated----
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs)
For example, on March 23, 1933, he addressed the Reichstag: "The National
Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and
Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We
hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in
the moral uplift of most of the German people."[10] At one point he
described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so."
"According to Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic
Church until his death"
So the argument is over and you lost, once again.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:55:43 +0000, "Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
But that seems to be not protecting Germany's institutes or
whatever but going back far farther, to various pagan views, at
least nominally.
He portrayed himself as being on the side of whatever group he was
talking to at the moment. He was on the side of the workers and the
business leaders, at the same time. Hitler had the lying politician
thing down perfectly.
I haven't lost before nor this time. Holman is blaming Christians
for Hitler when Hitler wasn't a Christian. This is what Holman
said:
#begin quote Holman
Funny you mention the Christian Hitler and his
Christian attacks on the Jews.
#end quote
Hitler didn't attend Church. Hitler actually hated the Catholics
according to many reports:
#begin quote supra
In the Hossbach Memorandum, Hitler is recorded as saying that "only
the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age"
were responsible for the demise of the Roman Empire.[22] In 1941,
Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, neo-platonist
and pagan Roman emperor Julian the Apostate's Against the
Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like
Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read
this...."[23]
#end quote
--
What I hate about flip flops is the flip and the flop.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:55:21 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 12/11/09 17:55, in article 4AFC...@yahoo.co.uk, "Bill Bonde {
'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )" <...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
Hitler is a self-declared Catholic. You say he wasn't a Christian
How do you reach your conclusion. Are you in a position
to say when a person is or is not a Christian?
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