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Systematic Eyewitness Errors

On 1 Jun 2009 23:06:39 -0400, WhiskyJoe <...@pacbell.net

Systematic Eyewitness Errors

I am a skeptic, one who is generally
skeptical of reported phenomenon which
amply supported by eyewitness accounts,
but somehow always fails to be supported
by any strong physical evidence. And so
I am skeptical of reports of the amply
documented eyewitness supported
phenomenon like UFO's, ghosts, Bigfoot,
lake monsters, Medieval witches, etc.

In general, eyewitness testimony is
unreliable. Physical evidence is much
more reliable. That's why we are seeing
so many convicts being released from
prison who were proved innocent by DNA
evidence and who got put in jail in the
first place by generally honest but
mistaken eyewitness testimony.

Very often, people assume that
eyewitness testimony can be relied
on in some cases. While some admit
that if we only have one eyewitness,
that person can not be relied on,
since one person can be mistaken.
But it is statistically very unlikely
for many eyewitnesses to be mistaken.
So eyewitnesses are describing a suspect
and one person says they wore a red
shirt, two said it was green, one said
it was yellow and 22 said it was purple,
then it was a purple shirt. Period.

But this ignores the possibility that
there may be a systematic reason for
the error. Maybe the crime took place
at a dance party with "black lights"
and the suspect wasn't wearing a purple
shirt but a white shirt. Or maybe
22 people reported a white shirt,
taking into account the black lights
but the suspect was really wearing a
purple shirt.

A stronger example is a crowd watching
a magician. Now my believe is that
magicians use misdirection to mislead us,
just as they claim. So I could say
"I observed a magician used some trick
to make it appear a coin appeared in his
hand, etc." But, if I don't use my
beliefs to influence what I observe
what happened, I would have to say
"I saw a coin materialize out of thin
air in his hand, then the coin
dematerialized and then
re-materialized behind someone's ear."
And most observers would report the
same thing. But, of course, there is
a systematic reason for a high rate of
observer error. The magician is using
misdirection to mislead us.

I think there are clear signs of
systematic eyewitness errors at
Dealey Plaza.

****************************************

Systematic Eyewitness Errors, Example 1:

This is the classic Dealey Plaza
Systematic Eyewitness Error. It is
often reported that of the hundreds of
witnesses present, no one observed JFK
and Connally get wounded at the
same time.

This is a no brainer. Humans do not
have the eyes of a Chameleon.
One cannot focus one eye on JFK and the
other eye on Connally. Even looking at
the Zapruder film (the entire film,
not a special one that just covers
frames 226 and 227) and knowing what is
going to happen, I can't observe both
JFK and Connally both start to raise
their right arms in unison, even though
both did starting at Z226. The best I
can do is concentrate on JFK, observe
him start to react as he emerges from
behind the sign, then, on the next
view, concentrate on Connally and
observe him starting to react as he
emerges from behind the sign.

If any witness ever reports that they
saw two people react at the same time
to a wound, something must be off.

****************************************

Systematic Eyewitness Errors, Example 2:

Most witnesses say that immediately
after the first shot, JFK grabbed for
his throat. Clearly, they are referring
JFK's reactions starting at Z226.

However, particularly for witnesses who
were close to JFK, many report there was
a shot, there was no sign that anyone
was hit. Then, a few seconds later,
there was another shot and JFK grabbed
for his throat.

It seems it was very common for people
to miss hearing the first shot. Or it
was fairly common to imagine hearing an
early shot that did not occur.

I think there was an early shot that
most people did not hear, around Z153,
and that there is a systematic reason
for this error.

First of all, for people who report an
early shot, they sometimes say it sounded
flat, not as loud as the later shots.
And there is an obvious possible
explanation.

The sniper's nest was best for firing
after the limousine cleared the tree
and moved directly away, from about
Z240 to Z350. But Oswald may have fired
earlier, possibly because of a snap
decision, based on the limousine being
so close. If this happened, the vertical
firing angle is so steep, about
30 degrees, that Oswald may have been
stooping as he fired and the muzzle
did not extend out of the window.
This would definitely muffle the sound
some, particularly for people who were
not close to the limousine and did not
have a direct line of sight to the
muzzle of the limousine. Combined with
the noise of the crowd and the vehicles
and not being alert to danger, it's
possible many people may have missed
this sound.

For the people who heard an early shot,
like Connally and the Secret Service
agents in the trailing car, they were
close enough to JFK that they likely
had a clear line of sight to the muzzle
of the rifle, even if it did not extend
out of the room. This, I think is a good
explanation why so many Secret Service
agents heard an early shot, while most
witnesses did not.

****************************************

Systematic Eyewitness Errors, Example 3:

Shot Pattern.

Some witnesses report the shots were
somewhat evenly space out.
"Bang ... bang". Or as
"Bang ... bang ... bang".
But some say the last two shots were
quite close together, like
"Bang ... bang bang". Is that a likely
reason for systematic error?
Yes there is.

There are possible reasons why
eyewitnesses report the last two
shots as much closer together, even
though the shots probably came at
Z153, Z222 and Z312, making the pause
between the first shot and the second
3.8 seconds and the pause between the
second shot and the third 4.9 seconds.

First, the evidence for a shot at Z154,
while pretty good, is not as strong as
a shot at Z222 and Z312. So maybe the
first shot did come before Z133,
as Holland and Rush theorized,
although I doubt it. But if it did
come before Z133, that would account
for the shot pattern that is commonly
reported. So it is possible, that in
this case, the majority of the
eyewitnesses are correct.

It is also possible that time may seem
distorted once one realizes that shots
are being fired which may cause the
third shot to seem closer to the second.
Most people did not realize that shots
were being fired until after Z312.
Many eyewitnesses will say otherwise
but it's clear from the non reactions
before Z312 that most people did not
think shots were being fired until
then. And hardly anyone realized a
shot was fired before Z222. A minority
of people noticed and recognized that
JFK appeared wounded after Z222. Only
after Z312 did all observers realize
that shots had been fired. So it is
possible that one's perception of time
may be altered by the knowledge of
danger. So they might report the
second interval as being shorter due
to there knowledge or suspicion of
danger, or being closer to Z312 when
they definitely realized there
was danger.

Also, individual rifle shots, unlike
pistol shots, can easily be mistaken
for two shots. That is because rifle
bullets are super sonic. One can hear
the super sonic bullet as it rushes by,
followed by the sound of the muzzle
blast. This is a familiar phenomenon
to soldiers who are taught that when
they hear a "crack-thump" to ignore
the "crack", the sound of the
supersonic bullet and concentrate on
the "thump" which will tell them the
direction of the rifle.

For an observer near the limousine,
for the fatal headshot, the "crack"
would come about 0.11 seconds before
the "thump". This could be mistaken
for two different shots, "bang bang".

0.11 seconds would be the maximum
separation for the two sounds.
For observers further away, like
Mr. Zapruder, the "crack thump"
sounds would arrive at about the
same time and being so far from the
bullet, the "crack" would not be so
loud in any case. They would likely
report just one "bang" for that
final shot.

For the Z222 shot, the separation
between the "crack" and "thump"
would be a maximum of 0.08 seconds,
which might be too close together for
observers to report as a "bang bang".
And another reason for eyewitnesses
only reporting a single shot at frame
Z222 but a double shot at Z312, may be
that the shot at Z222 alerted them to
possible danger. And being more alert,
they noticed the double sound at Z312
and remembered it as being two different
shots, one right after the other.

In conclusion, there may be systematic
reasons for many observers reporting the
last shot as a double shot or for the
last two shots being closer together
than they really were. For some
witnesses, it may have been hearing
the "crack thump" at Z312 and confusing
this with being two shots. For others,
they may perceive time differently
if they suspect there is danger.

****************************************

Systematic Eyewitness Errors, Example 4:

Most Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses were not
identified and asked where the shots
came from. Most who were asked said
they could not tell. This is not
surprising because it can be confusing
to tell where a rifle shot came from.

Of those who were asked and who had an
opinion, a plurality said it came from
the general direction of the Oswald
sniper's nest. About 5 or 6 even said
they a rifle sticking out of a window
and reported seeing it soon after the
event. Almost as many reported the
shots came from the Grassy Knoll.
And a small minority reported the
shots came from elsewhere.

I think that likely, the reports of the
shooter on the Grassy Knoll was not as
a result of echoes, or of any sound,
but was based on what they saw.

The bullet exited the side of JFK's head.
And that is where the explosive wound
occurred within a few milliseconds after
the bullet exited. There was a spray of
organic matter headed toward the Grassy
Knoll. I think it would be natural for
observers to think a bullet caused a
"splash" like a rock thrown on a pond.
One police officer testifying to the
WC said he concluded a shot came from
the Grassy Knoll as a result of
observing JFK's head exploded.

I think that this could cause an
observer to remember that they "heard"
the shot came from the Grassy Knoll,
even though what really may have
happened is as a result of what they
saw, they concluded a shot came from
the Grassy Knoll and then thinking about
it later concluded that they must know a
shot came from the Grassy Knoll, because
of what they heard. And so they report
that they remember "hearing the shot
came from the Grassy Knoll."

The logical conclusion to draw from this
is not that a small plurality heard the
shots came from the Sniper's Nest over
that of the Grassy Knoll, therefore the
shots must have come from the Grassy
Knoll. Instead, it is important to
realize that eyewitness testimony is
unreliable. The failure of the majority
of the eyewitnesses to even agree on
where the shots came from amply confirm
that they are unreliable.

****************************************

Can we conclude that Alien abduction is
real because so many report the same
type of aliens, the Grays? No, we cannot.
There may be systematic errors. Namely,
the exposure through the media of
millions of people to Gray aliens.
Indeed, the earliest report of Gray
aliens is from a Science Fiction TV
show from the 1960's.

And so we must always keep in mind the
possibility of systematic errors so
even when there is a strong agreement
amount eyewitnesses, we must not
conclude that 90% cannot be wrong.
And physical evidence must trump
eyewitness testimony, no matter
how strong the eyewitness
testimony may be.



On 2 Jun 2009 20:16:02 -0400, yeuhd <...@gmail.com

On Jun 1, 11:06 pm, WhiskyJoe <...@pacbell.net
Not a plurality, a majority.

53.8% of earwitnesses said all shots came from the direction of the
Depository.
33.7% of earwitnesses said all shots came from the direction of the
grassy knoll or Triple Underpass*
7.7% of earwitnesses said all shots came from elsewhere
4.8% of earwitnesses said the shots came from two directions

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shots.htm

* That number should be 32.7%. Officer Joe Murphy, standing on the
Stemmons Freeway overpass, said all the shots came from an easterly
direction, which from his position included both the knoll and the
Depository. He would need a new "knoll or Depository" category.

On 2 Jun 2009 20:45:33 -0400, pjspeare <...@AOL.COM

On Jun 1, 8:06 pm, WhiskyJoe <...@pacbell.net
Whiskyjoe, you are quite correct in your basic premise...that the
differences in opinion reflect systematic errors. However, your attempts
at rationalizing the 153, 222, 312 shooting scenario are off- base.

For one, NO ONE watching Kennedy at the time of the first shot saw him
calmly wave to the crowd after the shot. No one. From this we can gather
that there was no first shot miss.

For two, the effect of danger on time estimation has been studied. Many
times. And it has been shown that time slows down for those involved in a
life-threatening event. By roughly 50%. This suggests that the last two
shots were actually MUCH closer together than the first shot was to the
second, and not the opposite, as you are proposing.

I discuss the eyewitnesses and what can be gathered from their statements
in chapters 5-9 at patspeer.com. This study led me to a new understanding
of the shooting scenario. Feel free to point out any errors.

As far as your discussion of eyewitness evidence vs. physical
evidence...while it is true that physical evidence is generally more
reliable, it is not true that expert opinion of the meaning of this
evidence is necessarily more reliable. As a result, you `can not simply
trust the opinion of one or two experts and say that their opinions
automatically trump what was observed by others. On my webpage, I discuss
the HSCA trajectory analysis, and prove it to be a shallow and inaccurate
fraud. I also have a video proving that the HSCA's top medical expert had
little understanding of one of the autopsy photos, and how it related to
Kennedy's body. Physical evidence, when interpreted by such men, is not
as reliable as eyewitness evidence.

On 2 Jun 2009 22:31:16 -0400, WhiskyJoe <...@pacbell.net

From David Reitzes webpage:

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100shot6.html

Billy Joe Martin:

I was looking at the president when the
first shot was fired. It missed.
The second shot hit the president in
the back, and the third hit him in
the head.

Stavis Ellis:

That's when the first shot was fired.
I was looking directly at the President,
and I saw the concrete burst into a
cloud of dust when that bullet hit
the curb. . . . Then, while looking
back at the President, I heard the
second shot. The President became
rigid and grabbed his neck.

William G. Lumpkin says:

As the President started down Elm ...
that was the same time the shooting
started. ... The first shot apparently
missed the limousine as it hit the curb,
not too far from where [some onlookers]
were standing. The second and third
shots hit the President from the rear.

Glen Bennett of the Secret Service:

At this point I heard what sounded like
a firecracker. I immediately looked ...
towards the President who was seated in
the right rear seat of his limousine
open convertible. At the moment I
looked at the back of the President
I heard another firecracker noise and
saw the shot hit the President about
four inches down from the right shoulder.

Mary Woodward, a reporter for the
Dallas Morning News, wrote an account
of her recollections. She stated that,
while her memory was "a little hazy"
regarding events once the shooting
began, "I don't believe anyone was hit
with the first bullet. The President
and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked
around, as if they too didn't believe
the noise was coming from a gun."
"Then after a moment's pause there was
another shot and I saw the President
start slumping in the car."

****************************************

Yes, it's true. None reported JFK as
smiling and waving nor noted what color
tie JFK was wearing. But after a brief
glance to see if he looks wounded,
they likely were preoccupied with
wondering if that really was a shot
they heard and may have started looking
for a gunman. Many of these witnesses
were behind JFK and could not see him
smile.

And it's possible some of them may have
notice him smile or wave after the first
shot, but chose not to volunteer this
information, since, in their mind, it
might make JFK look foolish. Remember,
there are all sorts of reasons one may
encounter "Systematic Eyewitness Errors."

****************************************

Now, all these witnesses may definitely
be mistaken. But there are definitely
witnesses who think the first shot
missed. And, yes, it's true, none
reported that immediately after the
first shot, JFK waved again, and
smiled, but they are definitely
"First Shot Missed" witnesses.

****************************************

And of course, Governor Connally stated
he heard a shot behind him, turned to
his right look back, didn't turn quite
far enough to see JFK, did not see a
shooter, turned to his left and became
aware he had just been shot. Unless one
excepts the highly questionable argument
that Connally had not yet been shot in
the Z220's, nor Z230's nor Z250's,
indeed, never, since he never turned
forward again after then, his turn to
look over his right shoulder to check
on the sound of the first shot that
hadn't hit him yet, starts in the
Z160's, not in the Z240's.

If Governor Connally did not start to
look back over his right shoulder to
check on the sound of a rifle shot
in the Z160's, exactly when did this
motion start?

Governor Connally may be mistaken,
like any eyewitness, but he should
definitely count as a "Early First Shot
- before Z162 - Which Missed" witness,
with the caveat that he did not see JFK
so he cannot confirm nor refute if JFK
was wounded by that first shot. But
Connally was not wounded by that first
shot, nor did he noticed any damage to
the limousine.

****************************************

I've never believed the HSCA on anything,
certainly not on their trajectory
analysis. Not for their Z190, through
the leafs SBT trajectory. Nor for
their wacky Z312 diagrams. They were
too much into making new and
startling discoveries.

****************************************

Wow, a study of people who are noted
intervals of let's say three sounds,
with sudden danger right after the
second sound?

I would like to see a detailed article
on these studies. And also a detailed
study of time perception when one is
viewing a celebrity with little
awareness of danger, like Z153-Z222.
Maybe time really seems to slow down
then?

I've done no study, but I've got
over 30 skydive jumps. And once, my
chute delayed opening what could not
have been more than a couple seconds.
Can't be more than a couple of seconds
because the pilot chute was in a partial
vacuum behind my back, not an uncommon
occurrence. The instant one moves,
the vacuum is broken and the chute
starts to deploy. And I can tell you,
nothing seemed to move in slow motion,
one moment I was in a routine fall
and had just pulled the main chute.
The next instant, the startling
realization of sudden danger, the next
moment, my main chute open with my hand
groping for the reserve chute handle
without even thinking about it.
Should have just tried moving an arm
first, to break a possible partial vacuum,
then cutaway the main chute, then gone
gone for the reserve handle. But it's
hard to think clearly when your reacting
automatically and not aware your taking
any action at all.

In any case, sudden realization of danger,
danger passed before I knew it, even though
it must have taken a second or two for my
main chute to deploy before I would notice
it. It did not seem that time passed slowly
to me. I think that for me, three seconds
seemed like one second.

Maybe for an Astronaut, time moves slowly
in a period of sudden danger, but I
suspect for most people, it moves pretty
fast, sometimes too fast.

On 3 Jun 2009 13:34:43 -0400, Andrew Mason <...@spmlaw.ca


Your comparisons are rather strange. When are these phenomena
independently corroborated? Never. Well, except UFO's. Apparent UFO
phenomena are sometimes independently corroborated. If they are it is
because there was some real phenomenon that was observed - but never
flying saucers. If sightings of flying saucers or aliens are
"corroborated", there is inevitably collusion.

Why don't you compare it so witness accounts of real events? Courts deal
with these all the time. Give me one example of a case in which the vast
majority of witnesses independently recalled certain details and were
wrong in the same way. I can guarantee that you cannot find such an
example. There are cases of mistaken identity and the problem is, in every
case, that the identifications were not independent. They were all
influenced by faulty suggestive questioning and line-ups.


A popular myth. What evidence do you have to support that statement?


Wrong. In most cases they were put there by faulty "expert" evidence that
falsely contradicted real independent witnesses. That is the case in
almost every case in Canada where false convictions were found. In one
case, a pathologist was responsible for dozens of false convictions. In
every case, correct witness evidence was rejected. In the case of Guy Paul
Morin, bogus hair and fibre evidence was uses to contradict witness
evidence relating to his alibi that was proven to be correct. In the case
of Clayton Johnson who was convicted of killing his wife by beating her
based on bogus blood spattering evidence. In the US there were many
convictions based on bogus FBI bullet lead analyses. I am not aware of
any case in which truly independent witness evidence was shown to be false
in the same way.


Good point. That is why we have defence counsel to point these things out.
Where do you see that kind of effect in the JFK assassination?


Another very good example. But here the witnesses are not independently
mistaken. Their perceptions are being deliberately manipulated by the same
trick. What is the source of error in the JFK case?


Correct.


Well, they were only 2 feet apart. At 50 feet, that makes a pretty small
angle. The problem is not that no one noticed them reacting at the same
time. The problem is that the witnesses specifically saw that they
didn not. They said that JFK reacted to the first shot by moving left
and bringing his hands to his neck. JBC and Nellie were absolutely
adamant that JBC was not hit in the chest by that shot.


It is by no means "clear". We can't see what he did behind the sign.
Things are clear when reasonable people cannot disagree. Leave me aside.
The fact that the FBI, WC and HSCA differ from your view means it was
not clear.


Who said this??!! No one. Not one person. None.


Do you mean the shot that witnesses described as a loud firecracker or
"horrible ear-shattering noise" (Mary Woodward). Was that the sound that
no one heard?


This is just wrong. If "most" witnesses did not hear the first shot
where are they? Only 17 witnesses said they heard only two shots. 78
percent heard 3 (132 out of 178). See: D. M. Green, “Analysis of
Earwitness Reports Relating to the Assassination of President John F.
Kennedy”, Report No. 4034, House Select Committee on Assassinations
Hearings, Vol. 8, p. 128 at page 142


Not really. Many witnesses said the shots were "real close", "in rapid
succession", "just about as fast as you can fire with a bolt action
rifle". There are 5 seconds between z223 and z313.


In other words, the witnesses are not recalling observations independently.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And we have legions of people wrongly convicted on
physical evidence as interpreted by "experts" to back that up.

Andrew Mason

On 3 Jun 2009 17:53:38 -0400, Osprey <...@gmail.com

<snip
In the Johnson case, the notion of "blood splattered everywhere" came from
the recollections of a woman who participated in the cleanup on the
family's behalf. No body else, police, medics, etc., reported "blood
everywhere"--just in the staircase area and floor at the foot of the
staircase. When Mrs. Johnson fell (backwards it was later determined by
consultant Linda Norton, a Dallas ME), she first landed with her head
pinned between the wall and stairs, the skull cracked and the momentum of
her body pulled it out again, causing the body to come to rest at the foot
of the stairs. Her husband was convicted because he was suspected of
pushing her down the stairs (or beating her death at the foot) and partly
because he remarried so shortly after the incident to a younger woman.

In this case, the eyewitness, whose story appeared later and resulted in
the belated arrest, was wrong (if one accepts Ms. Norton's foresnic
analysis). The original coroner had ruled the death accidental, Mr.
Johnson's trial overturned that, but the retrial confirmed the original
coroner's ruling.

Discussion Title: Systematic Eyewitness Errors
Title Keywords: Systematic  Eyewitness  Errors