 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:04:41 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe02.iad...
[ snip ]
[ snip ]
[ snip ]
klunk does not have the neural capacity to equate this. Quite true.
Initially the 1929 depression governments then tried the bailouts and spend,
spend, spend and it didn't work. All it did was draw the government to the
brink of fiscal collapse, higher taxes and a prolonged depression lasting
much longer than it need to be.
Obama, Harpo and the statism civil service advising them are all making the
same mistakes as 1929. History in fact is repeating itself. I wish our
leaders would pick up a good economics book on the 1929 depression and read
it. For they would then realize the real cause of a depression.
Government and banks being the two most expensive items in anyones life,
need to realize they need to leave enough wealth in the middle class pockets
or there is no economy. This is 100% skirted by statists as it means less
government/bank take and thus smaller government/bank wealth robbing
footprint. Our society can't afford this size of government any longer.
The markets know this, that is why they have dropped over a 1000 points just
since Obama took office!! The market knows, the more the government
increases it's debt, the more taxes that will eventually come. In that
scenario, that means people have even less to spend in the future which
makes recovery less possible.
On average the middle class is now on a negative savings curve and has been
for over 2 years! Many are drawing on 401K/RRSP savings to pay mortgages,
decreasing their equity and savings. It is not sustainable. Further
collapse is inevitable at this point as governments/banks bicker on who gets
to screw the middle class more.
Governments/banks are destroying the very foundation of their finacial
existance. They don't want to acknowledge we can't afford big fat
government/banks/debt any longer. Government needs to wake up and smell the
coffee.
Going to be a long "Great Government/Bank/Debt Depression of 2008-20xx".
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:23:40 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe02.iad...
Beltway Bozos: FDR's New Deal Made Great Depression Worse
By Susie Madrak Sunday Dec 28, 2008 11:00am
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/beltway-bozos-new-deal-made-depressio
Oh, to live in that happy place where Fox News resides: where the sun shone
out of Ronald Reagan's behind, and FDR, not Hitler, was the real villain of
his time...
After Wise Men Mort Kondracke and Fred Barnes pull their chin hairs and
speak in somber tones about how Obama's economic stimulus package will
actually hurt the economy - just like FDR's New Deal did - they wax
rhapsodic over Reaganomics. (After tsk-tsking about unions quite possibly
wrecking the economy under Obama, of course.)
I, too, have fond memories of Reaganomics. Why, until Reagan waved his magic
wand, our unemployment checks weren't even taxed! I was absolutely thrilled
to be able to make that sacrifice to fund tax cuts for the wealthy:
Another Reagan proposal that came in for criticism was the plan to tax
all unemployment compensation.
[...] "What he's doing is taxing something to a person who is under a
rough time to begin with," noted Herbert Paul, a New York tax lawyer. "But
you don't seem to have a strong lobby group to push to eliminate that, so I
think it may well stick."
And stick it did. Why, thanks to Reagan's Tax Reform Act of 1986, I only
recently finished paying the taxes (and interest) due on unemployment income
from 2001 - and here I am, unemployed again, thanks to yet another
Republican-sponsored economic crash.
But I digress. The fact is, facts simply aren't relevant to Republicans,
since their economic views and objects of veneration are more appropriate to
a religious cult than intellectual rigor. (You might want to get Will
Bunch's new book for a look at this phenomena - and why it's so important.)
I'm not going to pick apart the specifics of everything Morton Kondracke and
Fred Barnes said, because they're only interchangeable players in the larger
conservative game plan. We've seen just about every possible Republican
bobblehead spouting this same nonsense in the past few weeks, fresh off the
RNC talking-points fax machine.
Yes, faced with a massive worldwide economic crisis that threatens our
entire society, the GOP response is ... to manufacture a meme attacking the
only policies that can possibly fix things. They are more than willing to
throw the country under the policy bus if it means they can lay the
foundation for a political comeback.
"Yeah, yeah, you people are out of work and companies are collapsing. But
what about our needs?"
Republicans are so used to cynically gaming the system, it doesn't even
occur to them that the obvious path to political rehabilitation is to put
the country's interests ahead of their own. But then, no one ever said True
Believers were logical.
New York Times economic writer Daniel Gross debunks the wingnut mythology
here:
It was only with the passage of New Deal efforts--the SEC, the FDIC, the
FSLIC--that the mechanisms of private capital began to kick back into gear.
Don't take it from me. Take it from Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke,
who wrote the following in Essays on the Great Depression: "Only with the
New Deal's rehabilitation of the financial system in 1933-35 did the economy
begin its slow emergence from the Great Depression."...
The argument that the New Deal's efforts "perhaps had prolonged, the
Depression," is a canard. One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious
professional historian--I mean a serious historian, not a think-tank wanker,
not an economist, not a journalist--who believes that the New Deal prolonged
the Depression. (emphasis added)
It galls them that there's simply no factual way to argue that Republicans
are good for the economy - so they simply make things up.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:14:28 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe22.iad...
Thanks for posting a typical dumb-ass democrat article that fails to rebut
the argument that FDR and Hoover caused the depression in any way shape, or
form. All it is, is a TYPICAL bunch of smarmy smears the left is so famous
for and thinks substitutes as an argument. What a pathetic bunch of
bullshit.
Reminds me of the kind nonsense you post when you try to think for yourself.
Ben Bernanke is arguing for a bank bailout. Something that had to be done,
as all US industry depends on it. He was NOT arguing for a tax hike and
implementing tariffs. Something Hoover did and FDR kept in place.
Funny as hell. The writer fails to make his own argument and then at the end
reveals himself as a left-wing hack.
At any rate, tell us how we need to raise taxes and implement tariffs now
like Hoover did and FDR kept in place.
Go ahead, tell us..
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:24:38 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe23.iad...
translation: all dat reeedin' maid mah brane hurt...
wrong, stupid... I've NEVER advocated raising taxes... but lying leetul
repiggies jes' cain't he'p yerse'ves... yew got nuttin' but lies...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:23:41 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe15.iad...
You actually read something and it hurt to understand it?
LOL.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:32:12 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe12.iad...
what's even funnier is how you proved yourself incapable of understanding a
simple 8 word reply... 8-D
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:45:47 -0500, "Joe Irvin" <...@sccoast.net
"klunk" <...@newsfe22.iad...
Do you think the Federal Govt had anything to do with the Great Depression
... Smoot-Hawley Tariff, the Federal Revenue act of 1932, and the Federal
Reserve tightening credit at the wrong time? "But in the early 1930's the
Fed and its member banks lacked tools and knowledge. They did the opposite
of countercyclical action. They acted pro-cyclically -- tightening and
tightening in teh face of a downturn." The Forgottten Man, Amity Shales.
I'm not trying to place blame here ... its just that strong govt
intervention, no matter which party, had a terrible effect on the US
economy. One I guess could argue that the govt intervention (New Deal)
helped get the country out of the Depression, but if nothing was done maybe
the depression would have ended sooner ... the unemployment rate, did not
return to it precrash level until WWII. The DJI average didn't return to
its 1929 level until almost a decade after FDR's death. Its true that a few
good agencies/offices came out of the New Deal ... you listed a few above,
but how about the about 100 other agencies/offices that were created and the
powers that they wielded? How about Soc Sec and Medicare, Medicade and the
Prescription Drug legislation ... these are problems that have not and will
not be faced ... its kicking the can down the road.
This time around both parties have done things that have caused the present
situation. I believe our economy will come back, but will it take as long
as it did for the Great Depression? One cannot spend the amount of money
that is being spent without doing some good ... at the same time you have
the Fed govt competing with private industry for money ... I guess it come
down to who one thinks can use this money more effeciently ... is it morally
right to have the people that are in the $250,000 income bracket carry the
weight for the tax breaks and give aways that the govt plans?
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:19:51 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"Joe Irvin" <...@comporium.net...
[ snip for brevity ]
You could tax everyone that makes $250,000 and above 100% and the government
would go broke real fast. Most people make no wheres near that amount. In
fact very few as a percentage do. And certainly not enough of them to fund
the government.
The government relies mainly on the middle class workers for income tax, and
businesses that are profitable for it's revenue. People making $50K a year
think they will not be tax screwed by this opulant corruption spending might
want to think twice. There are not enough "rich" people in Uncle Sam's or
Uncle Turdeaus grasp to pay for government at these levels. The only
question is how bad will it get before the public wakes up to this immutable
fact.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:24:44 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Joe Irvin" <...@comporium.net...
<snip
deregulation was just as responsible for the depression as it is for today's
economic woes... case in point: canada's current banking system is highly
regulated in contrast to the american banking system... and it's the only
banking system that didn't get into hot water... and here's a historical
perspective on this:
http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/English/economy/1929_39depression.html
1929-1939 - The Great Depression
Many factors are believed to have caused the Great Depression. Speculation
on the stock markets drove share prices to inflated levels, and the bubble
burst when stock markets collapsed in the autumn of 1929. Consumer spending
dropped, even though prices had been falling. Canada was suffering a trade
deficit. Nature was also working against many Canadian farmers, as a
devastating drought on the Prairies wiped out wheat crops.
The Great Depression was a turning point for Canada. Before 1930, the
government intervened as little as possible, believing the free market would
take care of the economy, and that churches and charities would take care of
society. But in the 1930s a growing demand arose for the government to step
in and create a social safety net with minimum hourly wages, a standard work
week, and programs such as medicare and unemployment insurance. (See
1941-Unemployment Insurance Act.)
The Depression also led governments to be more present in the economy. It
brought about the creation in 1934 of the Bank of Canada, a central bank to
manage the money supply and bring stability to the country's financial
system. (See 1934-Bank of Canada.) As well, the world's severely restrictive
trading policies during the Depression were opened up by international
treaties such as the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT).
---
Seven Deadly Sins of Deregulation -- and Three Necessary Reforms
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=seven_deadly_sins_of_deregulation_a nd_three_necessary_reforms
Government, under Franklin Roosevelt, got serious about regulating financial
markets after the first cycle of financial bubble and economic ruin in the
1920s. Then, as now, the abuses were complex in their detail but very simple
in their essence. They included the sale of complex securities packaged in
deceptive and misleading ways; far too much borrowing to finance speculative
investments; and gross conflicts of interest on the part of insiders who
stood to profit from flim-flams. When the speculative bubble burst in 1929,
sellers overwhelmed buyers, many investors were wiped out, and the system of
credit contracted, choking the rest of the economy.
In the 1930s, the Roosevelt administration acted to prevent a repetition of
the ruinous 1920s. Commercial banks were separated from investment banks, so
that bankers could not prosper by underwriting bogus securities and foisting
them on retail customers. Leverage was limited in order to rein in
speculation with borrowed money. Investment banks, stock exchanges, and
companies that publicly traded stocks were required to disclose more
information to investors. Pyramid schemes and conflicts of interest were
limited. The system worked very nicely until the 1970s -- when financial
innovators devised end-runs around the regulated system, and regulators
stopped keeping up with them.
---
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticlepaged/articleid/3009931/pageid/ 1
Before the Great Depression, the United States had what is known as the
universal banking model. This allowed financial institutions to take
deposits, lend funds, issue securities, and arrange merger transactions all
under one roof. The problem with this model is that there are inherent
conflicts of interest. So, in the 1920s, we saw institutions flogging the
shares of companies for whom they issued securities to their depositors.
Many of these companies were of dubious quality and were deep in debt to the
same institutions. So the banks obviously had every incentive to reduce
exposure and heap the burden onto their own depositors. These abuses were
uncovered after the stock market crashed in 1929 and the Great Depression
began, eventually leading to the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.
Meanwhile, in Europe there was a Depression in the1930s as well. However,
banks continued operating in the universal banking model in countries like
France, Germany and Switzerland without interruption. None of these
countries suffered depressionary collapses in the years since the Great
Depression. Clearly, the universal banking model is not the source of the
problem then.
The real problem is deregulation - and this is where the Scheer article is
on target because many of the proponents of the disastrous deregulation of
the 1990s are in the new Obama Administration making policy decisions. I
have deep misgivings about the quality of their banking crisis solution
given their prior failings and the degree to which firms like Goldman Sachs
have ingratiated themselves into economic policy. But, that is a topic for
another time.
Here, I am discussing deregulation and the origins of the deregulation
movement. After the Reagan-Thatcher revolution, fans of deregulation and the
efficient market hypothesis gained sway in economic policy circles. The
idea, particularly in the United States and Britain, was that government was
a burden suffocating business with regulation. Reducing the burden by
de-regulating would free business and financial markets to operate more
efficiently, creating benefits for everyone.
The problem with this ideology is that deregulation usually means
irrational exuberance and turmoil for the deregulated market. For example,
in Sweden, the housing bubble that preceded their banking system failure and
nationalization was preceded by deregulation. In the United States,
immediately after the airlines were deregulated, the industry experienced
turmoil and repeated bankruptcy. After the financial services deregulation
in the U.K in 1986, irrational exuberance led to scandals and a housing
bubble which crashed spectacularly in the early 1990s.
Deregulation is a term used at once to mean reduced regulation and reduced
oversight. But, oversight will always be necessary, particularly in markets
newly open to competition. In the United States, companies within the
financial services industry were allowed to enter new markets after 1999
without sufficient regulatory oversight. There is nothing wrong with
JPMorgan Chase issuing securities, practicing investment banking, lending
money and taking deposits as long as the regulators are there to prevent
conflicts of interest and excess.
With easy money from low interest rates as an elixir, irrational exuberance
begins to make financial services firms drunk with greed. It should be
expected that some are going to cross the line. And that's where vigilance
is needed: to prevent predatory lending, excess leverage, off-balance sheet
investment vehicles, and enormous OTC derivatives exposure. These are the
excesses of the last decade. They have nothing to do with Glass-Steagall and
everything to do with deregulation.
<snip
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:03:46 -0500, "Joe Irvin" <...@sccoast.net
"klunk" <...@newsfe07.iad...
But a case can be made that the problems in the Great Depression were in
part caused by the Fed Govt ... they enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, they
raised taxes with the 1932 Rev Act and the Fed Reserve contracted credit ...
these are all deflationary acts which would contract the economy. Hoover
had started govt buiding programs ... the Hoover dam is an example ...
Hoover's building program was the biggest govt building spending program in
the previous 5 years ... the economy was contracting. It would be almost
impossible to expand the economy when on the one hand govt was responsible
for contracting credit on one hand and expanding spending on the other.
I'm not arguing against all govt regulation, but the abuses you mention
below are crimes within themselves ... like bogus deceptive securities,
flimflam, conflicts of interest. Why not prosecute when actual laws were
broken. As far as speculation goes, we have to have that in a relative free
market ... Microsoft, Amazon etc. ... bond and stock traders speculate
daily. Is it worth it to so control markets that speculation is impossible
... how is an economy to stay on the cutting edge and expand if investors
cannot speculate. This is not to say there will not be speculative bubbles
because there will be and always have ... just prosecute the actual law
breakers.
http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/English/economy/1929_39depression.html
I'm not denying that there wasn't some good that came out of the legislation
that came out of the Depression era. What isn't understood is how complex
our economy is ... FDR during the New Deal had created about 100 new
departments and offices. That was/is very expensive with taxpayers money.
But even with all the govt regulation ... I'm sure there is more regulations
on the books today than there were in the 70's we still have the same
problems ... Bernie Madoff and the fellow in Texas have scammed people out
of billions of $'s even thought we have the SEC which had been warned
several time about Mr Madoff ... we had Enron. We have the Fed keeping the
'easy money' spigot open far to long ... we have our govt pushing banks to
allow people to purchase homes that they could not afford with easy credit.
(I'm blaming govt in particular and not just one party) Of course this made
it easy for Wall Street Bankers to cash in ... bundeling these toxic loans
that were backed by govt agencies and selling them as high grade investments
because they were backed by the Fed govt. These officers in these govt
agencies also made out $ wise in the millions ... but we blame Wall Street
Bankers ... there is plenty of blame to go around.
Today we are told that we were living above our means ... easy credit etc
... allowed/encouraged by the Fed Govt. Now we are told the way out of this
mess is not for the individual to keep borrowing, but the Fed Govt will
borrow at unheard of amounts. To finance this we are told 95% of us will
get a tax cut or checks from the Federal Govt and people who have incomes of
$250,000, I think it is, will be taxed to pay for this. I'm not in that
income group but I still think it unfair to put the onus on those people.
It seems to me that if the Fed Govt wanted to get money in the hands of the
people they would do what a Congressman from Texas suggested ... a
moratorium on all Fed Taxes for, say 6 month. It would take effect
immediately and put money in the hands of all Americans rather than going
thru the Fed Govt. It seems to me the Govt had a big part in the Great
Depression and this one that we are now going thru.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticlepaged/articleid/3009931/pageid/ 1
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:42:08 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Joe Irvin" <...@comporium.net...
well, I will say it's nice to deal with one rational individual amongst a
bunch of monkeys screaming for bananas... but... to address your point...
ultimately, government is responsible for all failures either by not
providing efficient and effective controls and oversight or by
over-compensating in the opposite direction... and taxing either too much or
too little creates its own share of problems... it certainly IS a delicate
balance which must be struck and regularly maintained...
my essential point in all of this is simply that there is no black and white
solution to the complexity but most of the arguments tossed around by
reichtoids are firmly entrenched in a one-sized-pea-brain-fits-all mould...
I believe an argument which raises the specter of "socialism" is just as
irrational as one which screams over the "evulz of capitalism"....
ultimately, the HUGE lesson we are learning here is that we need to keep a
closer eye on the amount of "fuel to air ratio in our mixture".... the
analogy I struggled to remember because it's been so long is a "choke"...
the economy, which includes the establishment of regulatory and oversight
bodies needs to both be in favour of regulation but also wary of
over-regulation... and it must be able to adjust itself in the manner than
one used to do manually in older cars with a choke... such a body, I believe
needs to be more free from lobbying influence than perhaps any and every
other sort of body...
I think obama's essentially set up such a group with his bipartisan and
cross-industry body of representatives whom are tasked for just such a
role... this represents to me, an intelligent step which recognizes the
value of a balance between extremes in ideology...
with such a body and an intelligent set of regulations and efficient
oversight, which includes adequate reporting, analysis and measurement of
impacts on industries as they happen, bubbles can "burst more slowly" - like
letting the air out of a balloon more slowly... they don't necessarily have
to "burst with dramatic flair" because all the signs and indicators are
always present before they do burst...
monetary policy is managed by such a form of "manual control" as interest
rates are adjusted on an as-needed basis... and I believe market regulation
can be handled in a similar manner... with constant tightening and loosening
as needed and as determined by a market in constant flux...
I see the major challenges to such an approach are:
1. entrenched ideology
2. complex infrastructure
3. integrity of information flow for establishing an objective analytical
and above-board, corrupt-free process
there ARE more regulations than there were in the 70's but the number of
regulations isn't an adequate measure of their effectiveness or necessity...
there are also a wider range of businesses than there were in the 70's...
the IT industry alone has added an enormous amount of complexity to business
on so many levels that government has been able to do nothing but
continually run at full tilt to only keep falling behind with changes
occurring on an almost daily basis...
"living above our means" is a "safe danger signal" where we always know is
dangerous territory... which is actually an argument in favour of more
stringent controls in the financial sector which functions as an artery for
all other industries...
the downsides to dealing with a crisis like this one through taxes is that
taxes don't work fast enough and are not targeted enough to address
specifically identified weak spots and areas where we can focus growth to
provide maximum return on investment... iow... a moratorium on tax would not
stimulate a green economy where we've already identified that as a growth
industry... tax cuts would, at best only perpetuate the status quo...
<snip
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:29:03 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe07.iad...
What a line of crap.
Canada has already spent $75B in direct bank bailouts. While the media
calls it something different, it is exactly what the US government did.
Imagine about 75% of all Canadian income taxes for one whole year that go to
Ottawa going to bail out Canadian banks.
It is just different in that Ottawa is a term dictatorship with statism
parties. So it could get through the layers of government without the fuss
of 3 active branches of government.
We just put lipstick on a turd and think it isn't a turd, but it is still a
turd with polish.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:37:16 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe15.iad...
ya... good job with polishing that turd... I particularly like how you
trimmed out all that excess proof which added extra spit to your efforts to
shine like a turd... btw, dumbass... how DO you explain canada's banking
regulations preventing the financial crisis from repeating here...?...
here... let me stir your lack of thoughts a bit on this one to help motivate
that tired, ol' hamster running along that rusty wheel... do feel free to
ask for some wd40... I hear it's made of fish oil, so that might give you
the boost you need....
Worthwhile Canadian Initiative
Canadian banks are typically leveraged at 18 to 1--compared with U.S. banks
at 26 to 1.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/183670
The legendary editor of The New Republic, Michael Kinsley, once held a
"Boring Headline Contest" and decided that the winner was "Worthwhile
Canadian Initiative." Twenty-two years later, the magazine was rescued from
its economic troubles by a Canadian media company, which should have taught
us Americans to be a bit more humble. Now there is even more striking
evidence of Canada's virtues. Guess which country, alone in the
industrialized world, has not faced a single bank failure, calls for
bailouts or government intervention in the financial or mortgage sectors.
Yup, it's Canada. In 2008, the World Economic Forum ranked Canada's banking
system the healthiest in the world. America's ranked 40th, Britain's 44th.
Canada has done more than survive this financial crisis. The country is
positively thriving in it. Canadian banks are well capitalized and poised to
take advantage of opportunities that American and European banks cannot
seize. The Toronto Dominion Bank, for example, was the 15th-largest bank in
North America one year ago. Now it is the fifth-largest. It hasn't grown in
size; the others have all shrunk.
So what accounts for the genius of the Canadians? Common sense. Over the
past 15 years, as the United States and Europe loosened regulations on their
financial industries, the Canadians refused to follow suit, seeing the old
rules as useful shock absorbers. Canadian banks are typically leveraged at
18 to 1-compared with U.S. banks at 26 to 1 and European banks at a
frightening 61 to 1. Partly this reflects Canada's more risk-averse business
culture, but it is also a product of old-fashioned rules on banking.
Click Here Quantcast
Canada has also been shielded from the worst aspects of this crisis because
its housing prices have not fluctuated as wildly as those in the United
States. Home prices are down 25 percent in the United States, but only half
as much in Canada. Why? Well, the Canadian tax code does not provide the
massive incentive for overconsumption that the U.S. code does: interest on
your mortgage isn't deductible up north. In addition, home loans in the
United States are "non-recourse," which basically means that if you go belly
up on a bad mortgage, it's mostly the bank's problem. In Canada, it's yours.
Ah, but you've heard American politicians wax eloquent on the need for these
expensive programs-interest deductibility alone costs the federal government
$100 billion a year-because they allow the average Joe to fulfill the
American Dream of owning a home. Sixty-eight percent of Americans own their
own homes. And the rate of Canadian homeownership? It's 68.4 percent.
Canada has been remarkably responsible over the past decade or so. It has
had 12 years of budget surpluses, and can now spend money to fuel a recovery
from a strong position. The government has restructured the national pension
system, placing it on a firm fiscal footing, unlike our own insolvent Social
Security. Its health-care system is cheaper than America's by far
(accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent here), and yet does
better on all major indexes. Life expectancy in Canada is 81 years, versus
78 in the United States; "healthy life expectancy" is 72 years, versus 69.
American car companies have moved so many jobs to Canada to take advantage
of lower health-care costs that since 2004, Ontario and not Michigan has
been North America's largest car-producing region.
I could go on. The U.S. currently has a brain-dead immigration system. We
issue a small number of work visas and green cards, turning away from our
shores thousands of talented students who want to stay and work here.
Canada, by contrast, has no limit on the number of skilled migrants who can
move to the country. They can apply on their own for a Canadian Skilled
Worker Visa, which allows them to become perfectly legal "permanent
residents" in Canada-no need for a sponsoring employer, or even a job. Visas
are awarded based on education level, work experience, age and language
abilities. If a prospective immigrant earns 67 points out of 100 total
(holding a Ph.D. is worth 25 points, for instance), he or she can become a
full-time, legal resident of Canada.
Companies are noticing. In 2007 Microsoft, frustrated by its inability to
hire foreign graduate students in the United States, decided to open a
research center in Vancouver. The company's announcement noted that it would
staff the center with "highly skilled people affected by immigration issues
in the U.S." So the brightest Chinese and Indian software engineers are
attracted to the United States, trained by American universities, then
thrown out of the country and picked up by Canada-where most of them will
work, innovate and pay taxes for the rest of their lives.
If President Obama is looking for smart government, there is much he, and
all of us, could learn from our quiet-OK, sometimes boring-neighbor to the
north. Meanwhile, in the councils of the financial world, Canada is pushing
for new rules for financial institutions that would reflect its approach.
This strikes me as, well, a worthwhile Canadian initiative.
2009
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:49:20 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe12.iad...
nice try, stupid... but... BZZZZZT... wrong again... do try not to get your
insecurity panties tied up into such tight little knots or you'll give
yourself more brain damage than you already have... ;-)
oh ya... particularly northern trust... didya hear about how they spent
their billion+ on a stimulus they didn't ask for and instead of hiring back
the 4000 people they laid off, they partied up with our tax money on
chicago, earth wind & fire concerts...
suuuuure they are... with an average buy in price at half-a-mill in
vancouver for a very modest home, that's a pretty damned inexpensive
house...
it's also harder to get a mortgage in canada because you have to have a
*real* deposit up front... and if someone can get that much cash together
while getting into a reasonably priced and affordable house, then their
mortgages shouldn't be much more than what they can afford on rent...
well... that's a subjective evaluation which isn't really based on anything
other than a presumption on your behalf... many canadians have lots of
toys... and even more in some cases such as a variety of sporting vehicles
for different weather conditions... for instance, there isn't as much of a
(per-capita) market in the states for snowmobiles...
what good is avoiding a line if you can't afford to pay for the
operation...?...
canada's got more physical space and resources... population growth, if
managed properly, also grows our economy...
what puts downward pressure on wages is off-shoring to third world countries
and union-busting... cheap labour has a habit of biting people on the ass...
henry ford realized this when he figured it was in his own best interests to
pay his people enough to be able to buy his product...
when it comes to issues of where one chooses to live, that takes precedence
to some people like me over the income... others place a higher priority on
income... each to their own... I'll stay in vancouver, thank you very
much... I'm happy letting someone else pocket the extra 20k...
I've never been unemployed... but then again, I'm not employed either, in
the traditional sense of the word... I stopped being an employee once I
realized that the legal definition of the relationship between employer and
employee is master/servant... I didn't cotton to that and so, chose
self-employment... and I'd have to piss myself off immensely if I were to
fire myself... I prefer to fire pain in the ass clients... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:04:43 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe02.iad...
blah-blah-blah... same ol' song and dunce... hoover started... something...
but it wasn't either of the "new deals"... and so what if hoover realized at
the end that government needed to stimulate the economy.... bfd... your
argument is about as empty as your head...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_deal
The "First New Deal" of 1933 was aimed at short-term recovery programs for
all groups. The Roosevelt administration promoted or implemented banking
reform laws, emergency relief programs, work relief programs, agricultural
programs, and industrial reform (the National Recovery Administration, NRA),
and the end of the gold standard and Prohibition.
A "Second New Deal" (1935-1938) included labor union support, the Works
Progress Administration (WPA) relief program, the Social Security Act, and
programs to aid farmers, including tenant farmers and migrant workers. The
Supreme Court ruled several programs unconstitutional; however, most were
soon replaced, with the exception of the NRA. The Fair Labor Standards Act
of 1938 was the last major program launched, which set maximum hours and
minimum wages for most categories of workers
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm
1929
* Herbert Hoover becomes President. Hoover is a staunch individualist
but not as committed to laissez-faire ideology as Coolidge.
* More than half of all Americans are living below a minimum subsistence
level.
* Annual per-capita income is $750; for farm people, it is only $273.
* Backlog of business inventories grows three times larger than the year
before. Public consumption markedly down.
* Freight carloads and manufacturing fall.
* Automobile sales decline by a third in the nine months before the
crash.
* Construction down $2 billion since 1926.
* Recession begins in August, two months before the stock market crash.
During this two month period, production will decline at an annual rate of
20 percent, wholesale prices at 7.5 percent, and personal income at 5
percent.
* Stock market crash begins October 24. Investors call October 29 "Black
Tuesday." Losses for the month will total $16 billion, an astronomical sum
in those days.
* Congress passes Agricultural Marketing Act to support farmers until
they can get back on their feet.
1930
* By February, the Federal Reserve has cut the prime interest rate from
6 to 4 percent. Expands the money supply with a major purchase of U.S.
securities. However, for the next year and a half, the Fed will add very
little money to the shrinking economy. (At no time will it actually pull
money out of the system.) Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon announces that
the Fed will stand by as the market works itself out: "Liquidate labor,
liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate. values will be adjusted, and
enterprising people will pick up the wreck from less-competent people."
(More)
* The Smoot-Hawley Tariff passes on June 17. With imports forming only 6
percent of the GNP, the 40 percent tariffs work out to an effective tax of
only 2.4 percent per citizen. Even this is compensated for by the fact that
American businesses are no longer investing in Europe, but keeping their
money stateside. The consensus of modern economists is that the tariff made
only a minor contribution to the Great Depression in the U.S., but a major
one in Europe. (More)
* The first bank panic occurs later this year; a public run on banks
results in a wave of bankruptcies. Bank failures and deposit losses are
responsible for the contracting money supply.
* Supreme Court rules that the monopoly U.S. Steel does not violate
anti-trust laws as long as competition exists, no matter how negligible.
* Democrats gain in Congressional elections, but still do not have a
majority.
* The GNP falls 9.4 percent from the year before. The unemployment rate
climbs from 3.2 to 8.7 percent.
1931
* No major legislation is passed addressing the Depression.
* A second banking panic occurs in the spring.
* The GNP falls another 8.5 percent; unemployment rises to 15.9 percent.
1932
* This and the next year are the worst years of the Great Depression.
For 1932, GNP falls a record 13.4 percent; unemployment rises to 23.6
percent.
* Industrial stocks have lost 80 percent of their value since 1930.
* 10,000 banks have failed since 1929, or 40 percent of the 1929 total.
* About $2 billion in deposits have been lost since 1929.
* Money supply has contracted 31 percent since 1929.
* GNP has also fallen 31 percent since 1929.
* Over 13 million Americans have lost their jobs since 1929.
* Capital growth investments have dropped from $16.2 billion to 1/3 of
one billion since 1929.
* Farm prices have fallen 53 percent since 1929.
* International trade has fallen by two-thirds since 1929.
* The Fed makes its first major expansion of the money supply since
February 1930.
* Congress creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. (More)
* Congress passes the Federal Home Loan Bank Act and the Glass-Steagall
Act of 1932. (More)
* Top tax rate is raised from 25 to 63 percent.
* Popular opinion considers Hoover's measures too little too late.
Franklin Roosevelt easily defeats Hoover in the fall election. Democrats win
control of Congress.
* At his Democratic presidential nomination, Roosevelt says: "I pledge
you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."
1933
* Roosevelt inaugurated; begins "First 100 Days" of intensive
legislative activity. (More)
* A third banking panic occurs in March. Roosevelt declares a Bank
Holiday; closes financial institutions to stop a run on banks.
* Alarmed by Roosevelt's plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to
the poor, a group of millionaire businessmen, led by the Du Pont and J.P.
Morgan empires, plans to overthrow Roosevelt with a military coup and
install a fascist government. The businessmen try to recruit General Smedley
Butler, promising him an army of 500,000, unlimited financial backing and
generous media spin control. The plot is foiled when Butler reports it to
Congress. (More)
* Congress authorizes creation of the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Farm Credit
Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal
Emergency Relief Administration, the National Recovery Administration, the
Public Works Administration and the Tennessee Valley Authority. (More)
* Congress passes the Emergency Banking Bill, the Glass-Steagall Act of
1933, the Farm Credit Act, the National Industrial Recovery Act and the
Truth-in-Securities Act. (More)
* U.S. goes off the gold standard.
* Roosevelt does much to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor,
but is obsessed with a balanced budget. He later rejects Keynes' advice to
begin heavy deficit spending.
* The free fall of the GNP is significantly slowed; it dips only 2.1
percent this year. Unemployment rises slightly, to 24.9 percent.
1934
* Congress authorizes creation of the Federal Communications Commission,
the National Mediation Board and the Securities and Exchange Commission.
(More)
* Congress passes the Securities and Exchange Act and the Trade
Agreement Act. (More)
* The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment
falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.
* Sweden becomes the first nation to recover fully from the Great
Depression. It has followed a policy of Keynesian deficit spending. (More)
1935
* The Supreme Court declares the National Recovery Administration to be
unconstitutional.
* Congress authorizes creation of the Works Progress Administration, the
National Labor Relations Board and the Rural Electrification Administration.
(More)
* Congress passes the Banking Act of 1935, the Emergency Relief
Appropriation Act, the National Labor Relations Act, and the Social Security
Act. (More)
* Economic recovery continues: the GNP grows another 8.1 percent, and
unemployment falls to 20.1 percent.
1936
* The Supreme Court declares part of the Agricultural Adjustment Act to
be unconstitutional.
* In response, Congress passes the Soil Conservation and Domestic
Allotment Act. (More)
* Top tax rate raised to 79 percent.
* Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent;
unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.
* Germany becomes the second nation to recover fully from the Great
Depression, through heavy deficit spending in preparation for war.
1937
* The Supreme Court declares the National Labor Relations Board to be
unconstitutional.
* Roosevelt seeks to enlarge and therefore liberalize the Supreme Court.
This attempt not only fails, but outrages the public.
* Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government
spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an unbalanced
budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation plunges into
another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0 percent, and
unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.
1938
* Congress passes the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938 and the Fair
Labor Standards Act. (More)
* No major New Deal legislation is passed after this date, due to
Roosevelt's weakened political power.
* The year-long recession makes itself felt: the GNP falls 4.5 percent,
and unemployment rises to 19.0 percent.
* Britain becomes the third nation to recover as it begins deficit
spending in preparation for war.
1939
* GNP rises 7.9 percent; unemployment falls to 17.2 percent.
* The United States will begin emerging from the Depression as it
borrows and spends $1 billion to build its armed forces. From 1939 to 1941,
when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, U.S. manufacturing will have shot up
a phenomenal 50 percent!
* The Depression is ending worldwide as nations prepare for the coming
hostilities.
* World War II starts with Hitler's invasion of Poland.
1945
* Although the war is the largest tragedy in human history, the United
States emerges as the world's only economic superpower. Deficit spending has
resulted in a national debt 123 percent the size of the GDP. By contrast, in
1994, the $4.7 trillion national debt will be only 70 percent of the GDP!
* The top tax rate is 91 percent. It will stay at least 88 percent until
1963, when it is lowered to 70 percent. During this time, America will
experience the greatest economic boom it has ever known.
well, stupid... if you didn't step all over your own arguments and learned
how to be consistent with them, you'd realize that you've just dumped
another load of horseshit which smells like gibberish...
ahhhh.... the wingnuts are flying in full force today...
translation: wah-wah-wah... taxpayer money belongs to the repiggies to piss
away on partying it up with their buddies... it's not supposed to be spent
on rebuilding the economy.... wah-wah-wah... I have nothing to say about the
arguments in the article, but, I'll trim it out and replace it with my own
load of horseshit... and I don't care if what I post comes across as
hypocritical horseshit... people just HAVE to believe me because I can't
bear being a loser... wah-wah-wah...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:54:38 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe22.iad...
Posting gibberish and a timeline of the great depression is no argument,
except of course, in my favor.
But wait, there's more!
"Congress approved the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act in 1930. The legislation,
which raised tariffs on thousands of imported items, was signed into law by
President Hoover in June 1930. The intent of the Act was to encourage the
purchase of American-made products by increasing the cost of imported goods,
while raising revenue for the federal government and protecting farmers.
However, economic depression now spread through much of the world, and other
nations increased tariffs on American-made goods in retaliation, reducing
international trade, and worsening the Depression."
The Smoot-Hawley Tariff
In 1988, the Council of Economic Advisors proclaimed that the Smoot Hawley
Tariff Act was "probably one of the most damaging pieces of legislation ever
signed in the United States." The act was passed in June of 1930 and
increased tariffs to a tax of 50 percent on goods imported into the United
States. Since this occurred after the onset of the Depression, it's hard to
see how it could have caused it. However, since the real effect of the
increased tariffs was to increase prices and increase price rigidity, it is
easy to see how the Act could have exacerbated the Depression. Enacting the
tariff was exactly the wrong thing to do and about 1,000 economists signed a
petition begging Congress not to pass it. Eventually, 60 other countries
passed retaliatory tariffs in response.
http://www.amatecon.com/gd/gdcandc.html
During his presidency, the Smoot-Hawley tariffs weren't rescinded until
1944, and FDR had little to do with it. That's because "New Dealer Rexford
Tugwell later remarked that although no one would say so at the time,
"practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs that Hoover
started.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover
"Tugwell subsequently served in FDR's administration for four years and was
one of the chief intellectual contributors to his New Deal."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexford_Tugwell
"As a result of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff and other countries' responses to
it, the world after World War II saw a push towards multilateral trading
agreements that would prevent a similar situation from unfolding. This led
to the Bretton Woods Agreement, in 1944, a great lessening of global tariffs
starting in December 1945, and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade,
in the 1950s"
And THAT'S when the true economy - the private economy - began to recover.
Face it, the policies of Hoover and FDR caused the depression, and that
little revelation, is causing yours.
Heh heh heh..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
But by all means, do tell - tell us again how after 7 long years of New Deal
policy, 17.2% unemployment is the success story of FDR getting us out of the
depression, especially considering that was AFTER FDR's implementation of
massive public works programs.
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:22:52 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe18.iad...
wrong, stupid... recheck the timeline... and do note that unemployment went
down then bumped back up when he scaled back on his stimulus because of
pressure he was getting from the opposition about incurring too much debt...
wrong, stupid... 17.2% unemployment was a drop from 27% at its height in
1933...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:37:46 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe15.iad...
[ snip for brevity ]
klunkenomics eh? We all get low wealth value government jobs. This will
hurt your ears, there isn't one government job in this entire country that
isn't 100% consumption based. Government is a consumer of wealth. Every
dollar they take or borrow is consumption of wealth.
Wealth is jobs producing a product that improves wealth by adding value to
income of the society. Like growing wheat, raising cows, mining, making
steel or ....
Government taxes this and spends it, consumption.
For if government could generate wealth, why don't we all work for the
government? Because someone has to generate the wealth the government needs
to consume. Less sheeples means less government and in the end, recessions,
depressions and bankruptcies, just like we see today.
Another way to look at it, is if every one of use worked for the government,
we would have to tax everyone 100% to pay 100% of our wages. How does that
generate wealth?
Government is paracitical on wealth. Work programs consume wealth to keep
people busy may put some money in some peoples hands but does not generate
wealth in the society. In the end, it is just redistribution of wealth and
more debt to support.
But this wasn't written for you, your klunenomics you never published
because your are too confused to write it. I wrote it hoping your
klunenomics does not polute others minds.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:03:17 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe12.iad...
wow... that thar wuz a lotta wurdz ta compleatlee miss da point... ;-)
btw... your definition of wealth producing appears to be limited to monkey
work... iow... the only work that fits your definition of wealth producing
is blue collar labour... apparently, this whole IT thingy completely missed
the boat with you... even though you claimed to be involved in it... but...
for the record, government also invests in r&d which generates entirely new
classes of work and wealth and industry...
government is no more and no less parasitical (do note the correct spelling
because you never get this one right) than any other consumer... consumers
consume but consumers don't exist within consumption silos like leetul
peegies and do nothing else... consumers also invest and produce and create
value from their consumption... some consumers consume electronic bits and
assemble them into electronic devices which then function as products like
televisions for other consumers to consume so that they can use them for
displays to sell other products... and so on and so forth... alla way down
da line...
ya... I know... you'd rather carve everything up into neat little boxes so
that you can feel like you're keeping track of everything and controlling
the entire flow of the universe because it would fall apart without the
concentrated efforts of a control freak like you... but, the fact of the
matter is that everything is far more dynamic and inter-connected and
obviously more complicated than you are capable of discerning consequences
for...
but... don't let me stop you from thinking you've got it all figured out...
I wouldn't want your head to explode... after all, the last time I explained
just how brain-dead your idea of weekly voting was, you almost passed
out.... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:03:55 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Nobody" <...@209.197.15.171...
apparently, you can't stop paying me attention, nobrain... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:36:33 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
And how is pissing away trillions of dollars on pork going to stop
borrowing, and encourage saving?
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:12:54 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"bvallely" <...@h20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
It isn't. And you can't save what the government/banks take on your income
is so high.
Currently on average the middle class is still spending more than savings, a
negative wealth curve. Wages, minus government, minus bank costs is
insufficient to pay the bills and needs subsidising from debt and retirement
savings. Not sustainable as increasing debt is now limited. The last
decade of financing a middle class life style on debt has reached it's
limits.
That is, most of the middle class consumer is spending less not because they
want to but because they have too.
The real key to recovery is simple. Governments/banks have to lower their
costs to the middle class immediately and do so by not borrowing money.
Than means smaller government and banks. While they bicker about who gets
to fleace the sheep the most, the economy will continue a downward spiral.
In fact, it may accelerate this spring given current government/bank
policies.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:25:24 -0800 (PST), Kevin Cunningham <...@mindspring.com
On Feb 25, 12:36 pm, bvallely <...@aol.com
How did allowing, encouraging things like credit default swaps,
permitted under the repugs encourage savings? How did sub-prime
lending, encouraged under repugs, help any one?
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:19:09 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"bvallely" <...@h20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
You know, the funny part about this is that klunk here was arguing a couple
weeks ago that we need a "stimulus" instead of a tax cut because people
wouldn't spend it, they would save it and / or pay down debts.
Hahahahaha!
<sniffle
Oh, man..
Whew..
Please.. No more!
Bwahahahahahahah!
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:28:25 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe15.iad...
I still am, stupid...
translation: ah sure cain't tell weddur ahm a cummin' er a goin' 'cause mah
peegee gits me soooo hot...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:36:02 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe15.iad...
klunk is good for a laugh though. Makes one saddly realize the Trailer Park
boys are not fiction. An ironic laugh.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:38:48 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe15.iad...
ya... I'm sure the thinking types with real brains are enjoying watching one
person spank with ease, an entire group of morons all at once... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:05:16 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"bvallely" <...@h20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
and how is lying going to help your argument...?...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:20:34 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe22.iad...
Well, because when you lie, it discredits you, and that helps his argument.
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:25:52 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe08.iad...
translation: mebbe, if'n ah bak up his lie, den two lies make a reich...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:39:39 -0700, "Canuck57" <...@nospam.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe22.iad...
Why don't you write a 300-1000 line essay on kunkenomics and publish it, use
capitalization to make it reasonable so we can get to the second sentance
bebore thinking you are mentally retarded. LOL.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:22:16 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe11.iad...
Hahahahahahahaha!
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe02.iad...
translation: hyuck-hyuck-hyuck... warz mah peegee...?... a got sum lubbin
an' ah lahk ta heer her sqeeeeeel...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:30:03 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Canuck57" <...@newsfe11.iad...
why don't you explain how a charge characterized as "trillions on pork" for
a bill with a total amount of less than one trillion and where the amount of
money in dispute comprises less than 10% of that stimulus can be constituted
as a fact-based accusation...?...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:35:27 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
On Feb 25, 1:30 pm, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.orgBecause such bills always have huge cost overruns, and there's that
little matter of interest you want to overlook.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:41:54 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"bvallely" <...@q11g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
hmmmm.... yes interest is a part of the debt payment equation... but, so is
income... and if people aren't working then it doesn't matter how little
debt is or how small bills are because there's no money coming in to pay
them in the first place... but... I'm not surprised such a simple thought
escapes you.... so... I won't even bother confusing you with such terms as
"multipliers"... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:43:22 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
.
No, it's a huge part of the COST of the bill.- along with cost
overruns that ALWAYS happen, we're talking between 2 - three trillion
being squandered. Then there's another "stimulus" bill that will wind
up costing at least a trillion dollars. TARP. .
.
And if this bill was honestly geared towards creating jobs, you'd have
a point - but it's just not. It's a pork bill - most of the projects
won't be unleashed for years.
.
Who said it escaped me? It's my biggest complaint against
Porkapaluza.
.
The reason that you're not mentioning multipliers is because the pork
bill provides a pathetic aggregate demand v. aggregate output ratio,
Assuming the $800,000,000,000.00 cost (an insanely lowball number, but
let's give you guys every break for the sake of argument) for creating
four million jobs leads to a pricetag of $200,000.00 for every full
time and part time job. The jobs this bill promises to "create" are
overwhelmingly part time and temporary. After all, when the mall is
finished being cleaned up, people go back on the dole.
But let's revisit that $200,000.00 number. If the bill doesn't create
four million jobs, that price tag goes up. If the bill only creates
two million jobs, then the price tag for a law racking job jumps to
$400,000.00
What you want is to help people to create new businesses. That way,
you get your money back when loans are repaid, and the jobs are
permanent. But that's not the direction Obama is going.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:25:14 -0600, "Eddie Haskell" <...@hhdhdh.com
"klunk" <...@newsfe21.iad...
The "stimulus" ain't over. This is just round one.
Refer to "A Young Person's Guide to the History of the Depression" for
guidance.
-Eddie Haskell
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:31:21 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Eddie Haskell" <...@newsfe21.iad...
that's right... get used to it... there's going to be more.... MUCH more...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:39:12 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
Most certainly there will be. Obama's policies will produce massive
stagnation (which is unemployment and inflation), a far less safe
America, a new welfare state and a crippled health care system.
Enjoy these heady days - you will need to cling to them when the bill
comes due.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:44:07 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"bvallely" <...@t7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
oh... the heady days are long gone, stupid... now's the time to pay the
piper... and this is the price he demands... you should have thought about
this before getting a woody over pissing away trillions on irresponsible
wars which only made the country less safe in the long run... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:44:40 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
The stimulus bill costs about the same as both wars....combined.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:32:01 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
Lying? If anything, I'm downplaying the crisis.. Almost a 800
billion was just passed under the cover of darkness - a bill that
literally nobody read in it's entirety. If you think that the
stimulus bill will STAY at 800 billion, when interest and cost over
runs are considered, then you're dumber than I thought - and THAT'S
saying something.
Of course there's TARP, and Congress has another half trillion
spending bill in the pipeline. Let's not forget the job killing bills
that he's signed. Obama's also banned a shit-load of drilling on
American property - millions of jobs and hundreds of billions of
dollars shipped to foreign soil
and that's just Obama's first month in office - he's got 47 just like
them..
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:39:32 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"bvallely" <...@o11g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
hmmmm.... and in your world.... 800 billion is the equivalent of
trillions...?...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:11:20 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
On Feb 25, 3:39 pm, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.orgOh King of Marshmello Land, I come from a planet called "Earth".
.
It is when interest and cost overruns are included. Are you one of
those people who actually believe the sticker price? Used car
salesmen must love you.
This reminds me of Rodney Dangerfield's classic1986 comedy "Back To
School" in which he played Thornton Melon, a successful businessman
who attends an Ivy League university . At one point in the film,
Melon takes a class taught by Dr. Philip Barbay , dean of the business
school.
Professor Barbay decides to teach a semester by building an imaginary
business. He shows his business plan for building a new factory for
his new enterprise. He asks Melon (who has real world experience)
what he thinks..
Rodney asks "what kind of business are you building?"
"Television".
"Are you crazy? Build TVs in America? The South Koreans will eat you
alive."
Flustered, Barbay changes products. "Mittens".
"You need slave labor to make mittens. You can't get good slave labor
in America. We got laws. You'll have to build in Communist China."
"Widgets".
"What the Hell is a 'widget'"?
.
"It's an imaginary product which is used for the sake of discussion."
"If you say so. The other problem is that you've left off all sorts
of expenses in your plan."
"Such as..."
"Paying off the EPA, for one."
"Paying off....."
"Unless your idea of a hot time is wasting five years of your life
filing reports of the lifestyle of the jerkoff dung beetle. Then you
have to hire coyotes to sneak illegals into the country. And then
there's the mob, and you don't pay of those guys, you're in a world of
hurt...."
As Dr. Philip Barbay screamed in outrage at Thorton, the real
students wrote down every word that Morton said.
.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:43:10 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"bvallely" <...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
translation: damn!!! he just made me look like an idiot so I had better dump
a load of horseshit to cover up my embarrassment...
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:16:04 GMT, "Stan Pierce" <...@bigpond.net.au
"klunk" <...@newsfe20.iad...
(snipped)
I'm, thinking...where does the Mob invest it's money nowadays?
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:06:16 -0800, "klunk" <...@theothershoo.org
"Nobody" <...@209.197.15.171...
I'm glad you regard me as a professional on that subject, nobrain... I
understand how such an acknowledgment from you is a tacit admission to being
incapable of getting your horseshit to stick on me and is just your way of
admitting defeat... ;-)
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:47:58 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
.
If you, indeed, had made me look like an "idiot", surely you would
have an actual response to what I said.
Please, prove to me where I'm wrong.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:19:39 GMT, "Stan Pierce" <...@bigpond.net.au
"Zarian" <...@news.motzarella.org...
I'm thinking...The Bush Plan of investing Social Security money in the stock
market instead of just bank interest seems it might not have been a good
idea.
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:50:17 -0800 (PST), bvallely <...@aol.com
.
Have you ever been to Poland? A full third of the country is
uninhabitable - destroyed when the communists controlled that land.
The Chinese and the Soviet Union are the worst polluters in the world
- while the capitalist nations are the cleanest.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
|