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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
as the IDF spokesperson said "it's a mistake" ... yeah, one mistake of
tens of thousands. The poor poor Israeli soldiers who have such a
difficult imposssible job to do, my heart bleeds for them and the
rough life they have to lead as soldiers and airmen. <sniffle
But no, no no no of course, no pattern there at all ... none ... 90%
of all pre-1948 Palestine is now Israeli Land, the rest an outdoors
prison for 2.5 million people, and another 3 million refugees in other
lands.
and lies still go on and on and on ............... "road map to
peace" ?? what road map .. the Israelis never ever agreed to any of it
and have implemented none of it just to prove it. <shrug>
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:23:28 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On Apr 13, 4:34 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
American history has a similar story. When Native Americans were
overtaken by a foreign invader. Over time, land was taken & renamed
North & South America. Children were separated from their families &
adults put on reservations.
America was not the only place where this kind of thing happened.
Or, where religious ideology played a role in justifying the takeover
&
ownership of indigenous people's land. It happened in Africa, in
India,
even in Hawaii. How about Australia?
Go back far enough & one can hear about almost all of the Europe
converting to Christianity (Catholic Christianity I believe that was.
And
Greek Orthodox, perhaps, too).
Practically the whole world has known invasion and the taking over
of indigenous people, land and resources. How much of this practice
has it's roots in religious ideology? How much of this is justified in
the
name of God? These are the questions I am looking at. Because so
long as the practice seems popular and OK, IMO it will continue.
What is even more amazing, to me, is how a lot of new organized
religions (compared with older indigenous cultures) is not any more
credible. Even the "modern" has converted the older to an extent the
older people, cultures, and ways of life are called savage!
Looking at the damage to this planet from technology, the damage
to people ... I'd say there is another type of savage living with us.
And
it's not the people living in harmony with nature.
On your other thread - Origins of the Financial Crisis - detailed
and
nuanced perspectives - I wanted to respond with one sentence. The
same one that comes to mind here: "Mammon run amuck!"
BTW, I saw the movie: Australia, last night. IMO, the "bad guy"
got
what was coming to him, in the end. His own karma (only a matter of
time). I'm talking about the guy who killed his competition and blamed
it on the Aborigine.
Etznab
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:36:40 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On Apr 13, 10:23 pm, Etznab <...@aol.com
Tis always a matter of time mate <smile
thx for the comments, quite spot on IMHO - what is accepted is deemed
as acceptable. <vbg>
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:46:15 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On Apr 13, 4:34 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
The roots to this conflict might be traced back to organized
religion. When God "reportedly" made a promise to Abraham
and his descendants.
http://www.jewfaq.org/israel.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_land
And this is not the only "Promised Land", because those
religions that branched away from Judaism entertain a similar
concept.
When people believe that God gives them permission to
conquer & convert other nations, where does the root to this
problem lie? Does it lie with organized religion? I suspect it
might.
Etznab
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:54:57 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On Apr 14, 9:46 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
I suspect you might be right too Etznab. Maybe an organised religion
with political and military power to implement their concepts, cheers
sean
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:08:11 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On Apr 14, 9:46 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
PS Florence Schovel Shinn had a completely different view about the
Bible than her peers. eg regarding the Promised Land and other
matters .... after quoting the parting of the Red Sea event she
explains :-
"Now remember, the bible is talking about the individual. It is
talking about your wilderness, your Red Sea, and your promised land.
Each one of you has a Promised Land, a heart's desire, but you have
been so enslaved by the Egyptians ( your negative thoughts ) , it
seems very far away, and too good to be true. You consider trusting
God a very risky proposition. The wilderness might prove worse than
the Egyptians."
"And how do you know your Promised land really exists? The reasoning
mind will always back up the Egyptians. But sooner or later, something
says, *Go FORWARD*. It is usually cirecumstances -- you are driven to
it. "
from The Secret Door to Success
recommended reading by PT in Letters to Gail fwiw.
cheers
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:17:34 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Yeah I knew all this political war intrigue from way back .... I'm
still mindful that now is 2009, and that nothing can be done except in
the Now. Whatever happened 87 years ago, whether the info in the blog
is accurate or not, happened, as did what happened 500 years ago, or
2000 years ago ..... happened, and one could traverse all this back to
the big bang if we wanted to.
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Apr 13, 1:17�pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Sure, this article is looking back in history, but also, a few
paragraphs near the end are crucial to understand:
[Excerpt]
Perhaps the Secretary of State prefers to remain oblivious to the
stark fact that the Arabs, whom she embraces and who today call
themselves Palestinians, are as committed as their parents and
grandparents before them to destroy the Jewish state; whatever size or
shape its borders. The fact is that this is not a dispute over
borders; this is a religious war and the Arabs, so long as the
overwhelming majority remain Muslim, will never accept the existence
of a non-Muslim state in territory previously conquered in the name of
Allah -whatever the size or shape of its borders.
Only just recently, Muhammad Dahlan, speaking on behalf of Fatah and
the Palestinian Authority, declared on PA TV that the PA will not
recognize Israel -- one of the primary demands made upon the
Palestinian Arabs in the Oslo Peace Accords. Indeed, Dahlan admitted
that the only reason they meet with Israelis at all is in order to
continue receiving the immense flow of international funds. [End]
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:25:03 -0400, "Ken" <...@NowHere.net
In the old days, it might have already been settled one way or the
other. There would have been a bloodbath and then there would have been
a victor and a loser. But the world powers are determined to have
'peace', even if it isn't peaceful. I'm not in favor of suffering and
war is one of the worst kinds of suffering invented. But I wonder if
what is going on now is any better in the long run if it only leads to a
more drawn out conflict.
Is death by a million papercuts more merciful?
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:04:52 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Hi Jasmyn
well that's a biased opinion
A rose by any other name is still a rose .... look up Philistines in
the Bible, or Palestinians in a local librarys Ancient History book
eg Roebuck " The World of Ancient Times" Copyright 1966 [ it's a
classic about classic civilizations ]
That's a biased opinion too
That's not a fact it's an opinion
I'd rather see a credible accurate manuscript of what Dahlan actually
said in context, and in his own words, and here for him and not some
biased commentator whose busy sharpening his knife for a war.
I'm happy to listen to Israelis speaking for themselves about
themselves, and also listen to Palestinians speaking for themselves
about themselves -- and not the other way around. You might do
yourself a favour by doing some background research into what works in
"conflict resolution negotiations" be it backyard neighbors or
nations ... what you're quoting now and always *don't work at all*
<shrug
What's real, imho, is the real people on the ground, be they
individuals in Serdot or the businessman with the now deceased cement
factory in the video. I thought given people here "say" individual
pov's are all valid i figured the vid said quite a lot, and when I
cross checked the info and people, it stacked up as being accurate
reporting.
But if you are more interested in the religiously inspired fear-
mongering and the putting of words into other peoples mouths such as
"all youth of Palestinians" think the exact same way, then you are
free to do so and believe what you want. I have no interest in
changing anyone's pov in the least.
cheers sean
Cheers
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Anonymous Wrote:
Thanks for your links, Jasmyn.
The one state solution is even older and it existed before Crusaders
made Mesopotamia a problem.
Borrow Ken or Rich's library card if you don't have one and check out
Rose Wilder Lane. Here are a few links to provide background.
http://www.cato.org/special/threewomen/wilder-lane.html
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/departments/book-review-islam-and-the-discovery -of-freedom-by-rose-wilder-lane-with-introduction-and-commentary-by-imad-ad-dean -ahmad/
http://mises.org/story/2300
http://www.sharaaz.com/index.php3?menu=describe&table=Book&cat=Books&id=4054&la nguage=&associate=
With a little more research, you will learn how modern politics were
established in the British practice of arming the weakest and pitting
them against the majority which were usually primitively armed. They
conquered Scotland with this strategy. They conquered the American
east coast this way which we borrowed to some extent in the western US
and Philippines and practice today with our satraps around the planet.
The British used the technique to police India with the Sikhs. And the
British Empire which still exists saw an opportunity to divide Muslim
against Muslim as described in the links you provided.
Mongol strategy was more efficient. They created paper money, used
canon, and herded their opposition which they evaluated by the
concepts they practiced into close confidence as potential allies;
then beheaded man, woman, and child throwing their heads into a stupa
pile (Ismaelis aka Assassins). Thus no disaggreements.
The most efficient strategy of all, however, were the Muslims. Reading
Lane's book above, you will learn how they conquered without killing.
Of course, the shoot-from-the-lip types who snit and tweak the facts
will look for contradictory information gleaned from pseudo-scholars
on the 'Net. The next time you step onto an asphalt surface, thank a
Muslim. Then there's your glass coffee pot like the ones seen on Xena
if you drink that Ethiopian brew. And take a guess as to why Europeans
began taking baths which influenced us soon after WWII ended.
Please do not take me as being sarcastic in my comment above about the
library card. It is my way of saying I avoid and refrain as much as
possible in contacting anyone on a.r.e. privately. If saying something
about another is worth it, saying it in public is the most honest,
even if it may get me sued or cost me an arm and a leg. All karma is
good for without life's lessons, SOUL would never leave the planet and
step into the Ocean of Forgiveness and Redemption (Love & Mercy), ITs
True Home. Thank-you for the challenge.
JR
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Anonymous Wrote:
It's interesting to look at history, but also interesting to look at
what's happening today. We're extending the original topic of the
thread here, which is okay by me.
Without having read her books, Rose Wilder Lane's views seem somewhat
'rosey' compared to some others, such as:
Fourteen Centuries of War Against European Civilization:
http://tinyurl.com/4cq8u9
There's a lot in history to look back and see that the consciousness
of man in all religions and ethnicities has been barbaric at times.
But in this time period one religion only tries to establish their
_religious law_ as the law of the land, Islamic sharia, against the
will of some of the population. Sharia can be barbaric especially
against women's rights in--education, equal property rights, divorce
and custody issues, polygamy, control by the husband, father or male
relatives, and forced conversions even in this day and age in some
countries, (links can be provided), and it's known that their imams in
charge of sharia look the other way when it comes to many barbaric
practices such as honor killings, child brides, forced clitorectomies,
etc.:
Bulgaria MP Y^anev: Numerous Southern Villages Are Converted to Islam
by Force:
http://tinyurl.com/clf65q
Fear of death stalks women in Swat:
http://tinyurl.com/d4593w
Pak 'sharia' chief wants Islamic law for entire world:
http://tinyurl.com/crz8xk
India concerned over Sharia law in Malakand:
http://tinyurl.com/dnm9sm
Bosnia: 'Islamisation' prompts calls for Croat entity:
http://tinyurl.com/d8vawg
Hamas institutes Sharia law in Gaza:
http://tinyurl.com/cm3skn
Revealed: UK's first official sharia courts:
http://tinyurl.com/62wyh7
Nigeria Sharia architect defends law:
http://tinyurl.com/dk37uc
Sorry for so many links.
Jasmyn
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Anonymous Wrote:
Farmer's Almanac had a cartoon of a small rabbit once, being chased by
a little black Spaniel and the title was "Bad News Travels Fast." The
'news' focuses on what the human mind is trained to feed on, Jasmyn,
n e g a t i v i t y.
The Muslims supplying most of the negativity we see so much of is a
small minority labeled Whahabies (sp?) which have been around for a
long time. Call Lane's picture rosy if you wish. I have no objection,
but please do not expect free thinkers to perpetuate popular ignorance
with semantic reactions trained like Pavlov trained his dogs.
If you do not know what I am speaking of, please go through the
archives saved by Google and observe the polarization between ECKists
and former ECKists. Werner is an example. His single message comes
from SKS chapter ECK, The Everlasting Gospel; and that is, "A fool is
one who believes nothing greater than himself exists." Werner and Rich
have taught me a lot.
Abstract this to a collection of fools and you have a cult. Werner is
our insurance we do not all end up on a cruise liner going no-where.
The ECK does not need to be apologized for; nor does Soul Travel need
to be defended. Doing so, implies agreement with ECKANKAR's attackers
by the simple act of putting one's Consciousness in sympathy with
them. This does not mean to ignore them, of course, but to practice
what we read in the Shariyat on this plane or in the planes beyond.
JR
[I refuse to be an expert who drips under pressure]
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Anonymous Wrote:
Hey John, we have a vast difference of opinion perhaps.
I don't view it as negativity to be informed and speak up; why hide
the truth and push it under the rug and pretend it does not exist? It
doesn't go away by pretending.
I am detached about it, just a simple reader of what is going on in
the world, but you and I can afford to be detached as it is not our
every moment in life.
You like animal stories, I have a couple to share in this post, the
first one is the old story of the three monkeys: see no evil, hear
no, evil, speak no evil...this works very well until we are the ones
who would lose all of our rights and suffer the injustice of loss of
all freedom at the hands of religious zealots in power. Who would
speak up for us? We in the west have not had to deal with that in a
very long time, perhaps since hundreds of years when the church and
priests were the authority for law.
Those in charge in Iran are not Wahhabbis, they are Shiites--in Iran
posting on the internet like we are doing here speaking of this lands
one in prison for years, and then they may simply die of some ailment
which was actually torture--this has been in the news lately if you
have not read about two Iranian bloggers it happened to, one of them
died as very young man after being tortured. Hamas members are not
Wahhabbis, they are Sunni and recently their less than one hundred
member majority in their parliament voted in sharia law for all the
rest, with all that entails such as amputations for thievery, stoning
adulterers, etc. Israel doesn't want to be subjected to that btw. Most
in Egypt are Sunni, reportedly more than 90% of women in Egypt have
been clitorectomized, this happens as a child in grade school. Of
course Sufism is on the complete other end of the spectrum and took
the best and left the rest. Here are the many branches:
Islamic schools and branches:
http://tinyurl.com/2jtmnj
We may be talking about apples and oranges. Perhaps you have
misunderstood my post to be against the religion. It was not, I am
not. I am FOR speaking up for the poor Muslim women and others who
wish to live in peace and freedom but cannot (see the link I provided
above: Fear of death stalks women in Swat). I am FOR the many Muslims
who wish reform and freedoms.
I read this yesterday:
Taliban Execute Couple Seeking to Elope:
http://tinyurl.com/c72dwj
I'm familiar with A.R.E. and Eckankar critics. I'm not getting the
connection you're making with this dialogue. I am reporting actual
facts of physical and emotional atrocities and loss of freedoms.
Agree.
I liked your spaniel and rabbit story.
Another one I like is about the blind men and the elephant in the
room:
Six blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by
feeling different parts of the elephant's body.
The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the
one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who
feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who
feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels
the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the
tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.
A wise man explains to them:
"All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it
differently is because each one of you touched the different part of
the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you
mentioned."[1]
This resolves the conflict, and is used to illustrate the principle of
living in harmony with people who have different belief systems, and
that truth can be stated in different ways (in Jainist beliefs often
said to be seven versions). This is known as the Syadvada, Anekantvad,
or the theory of Manifold Predictions.[1]
Jasmyn
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:25:58 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
And a wise man would take that parable to heart and practice it,
intimately realizing that the producer of Atlas Shrugged was as blind
as a bat in a dark cave.
A wise man would recognize that the Islamic quotes given in Fitna are
fraudulent and a deceptive cherry picking and gross misrepresentation
of the texts in their true context.
A wise man would realize that the Jewish Rabbi who stood up at Geert
Wilders talk in the Atlas Shrugged sponsored gathering in the USA and
claimed he was quoting accurately from Koranic texts was fraudulent
and a deceptive cherry picking and gross misrepresentation of the
texts in their true context.
A wise man would realize that the people of the NWFP and the FATA and
the FANA areas of Pakistan are tribal people, and not graduates from
CSUN.
A wise man would realize that the real name for Pakistan is actually
the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
A wise man would realize that in the Swat Valley and other areas under
semi-government jurisdiction that the entire legal and court process
has simply fallen off a cliff in the last 5-8 years or so ... that
there has been NO effective police force or law court operations to
resolve even the most basic of jurisprudence and normal day to day
needs of the people. Into this gigantic vacume rolls the Taliban who
have now set up working Law courts under agreement by the Government
of Pakistan. That that step is the choice of the Pakistanis, and not
the purview of high minded ill-informed white people living in fine
homes with an operating Judicial System
A wise man would realize that honor killings, child brides, forced
clitorectomies etc are not a prerequiste of Islam but of an ancient
Tribal nature found throughout Africa and elsewhere on this planet.
A wise man would realize that being bombed to death in your own home
is a far more egregious impost on ones human rights than being
mutilated as 2 year old under ancient tribal practices. Once you're
dead you have no chance of changing ones cultural habits.
A wise man would realize that the practice of forced clitorectomies is
NOT a custom in the largest Muslim nation on earth Indonesia, and nor
is it a cultural practice in Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Palestine,
Jordan, Iraq, Iran and elsewhere to many to list - this link just
shows is how easy it is to spend 10 seconds of your life to find out
such well known information http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/069.html
A wise man would realize that those people who are so "blind" to use
such examples of FGM as a political tool to criticize Islam
specifically are simply showing how intolerant, ignorant, extremist,
biased, and racist they really are.
A wise man would consider the sex related practices imposed on women
of all religious sects, including those culturally imposed by Jewish
Fundamentalists in so called enlightened societies such as in Israel,
the USA and all other Western nations where such practices occur and
are deemed acceptable.
A wise man would realize that blacks were still being lynched in the
1970's in the USA on a regular basis .. that change takes time, and
education, and a will to good, and NOT bombs or unmanned drones that
destroy entire tribal villages in northern Pakistan.
A wise man would realize that almost immediately after the departure
of the USSR from Afghanistan that the moderate Muslims there were then
fighting to the death a losing war against the Taliban forces, and
that the lilly white feminists in the USA and elsewhere did nothing to
help them leaving them to be blown back to the dark ages under Taliban
rule, [ just like Cambodians under Pol Pot got no help after their
nation was half destroyed from US bombing during the Vietnam war ] and
that a few months after the Taliban blew up the ancient Buddhist
statues cut into the mountains and just two months before 9/11 the
Bush Administration of the USA on behalf of the people of America
including the feminists now decrying the treatment of women in
Afghanistan and Pakistan and Egypt had sent the Taliban Government
there about $300 million in cash .... not too many Afghani women said
"gee thanks George" that I recall.
A wise man would realize that the two most liberal, westernized
[ especially for women who worked in all areas of society and enjoyed
equal rights to men ] Middle East nations of Lebanon and Iraq have
been bombed back to the stone ages by Western Military Forces, and yet
the two most dysfunctional societies today are Pakistan and Egypt and
have been for some time oppressive Military Dictatorships .... and a
wise man would realize the longterm effects of the USAs ongoing
support for the oppressive Suharto Dictatorship of Indonesia.
A wise man would realize the "gross spin" involved in biased
politically motivated pushing of FGM being an Islamic issue, and of
Sharia Law as major intolerable situation that the USA can't morally
accept recognizing that the USA's two major Muslim allies in the
Middle East, Saudi Arabia & Kuwait are nations run under harsh Sharia
Law not that unlike the Taliban.
A wise man would automatically recognize when they are engaged with
another wise man, and not assume they are talking to one of the six
blind men. But a wise man recognizes quickly when they are listening
to a permanently blind man who is only holding the elephants tail if
they are lucky enough to walk past it.
That's my parable, I hope you liked it. :-)
Cheers Sean
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------
PS for anyone else who would like to learn more about what's going on
"on the ground" and not seriously biased political pundits safe and
sound in the USA pointing fingers about things they know little about
due to the poor quality and the cultural bias of the media there,
please check these links [ unbiased high quality journalism with video
and text, plus background info ]
Matthew Carney's report "Pakistan on the Brink", first broadcast 23
February 2009
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20090223/pakistan/
Afghanistan Unveiled - Broadcast: 24/09/2007
Sharmeen concludes that the liberation of Afghan women is mostly
theoretical: it was naïve to think that the country could be
transformed quickly, when the oppression of women was the consequence
of centuries of tribal and cultural practice - not the sole invention
of the Taliban. The West should be asking hard questions about where
all the millions of aid money has gone, with so little to show.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/afghanistan+unveiled/514247
5 Minute Guide: Fight for Afghanistan
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/asia_pacific/5+minute+guide+fight+f or+afghanistan/255888
Read more about life for Afghani women in the post-Taliban era. Date:
24/09/2007 [ many related links ]
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2042093.htm
Channel 4 News: 21 Apr 2007 - Rebuilding Afghanistan [ with video ]
When you come to parts like this it is pretty obvious that in addition
to security, people want their homes, their businesses and their
schools put back together again and that is a military and political
imperative because the quicker they put that in place, the more likely
the allegiance of the Afghan people will stay with the Karzai
government and not with the Taliban.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/natos+reb uilding+effort+in+afghanistan/456882
Four Corners presents a retrospective of our coverage of Islamist
Terrorism between 2001 - 2004. Video and interactive components have
been brought together in an on-demand context, allowing you to view in-
depth information on this complex subject.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20040830/
Four Corners presents an online edition of "Secrets and Lies" first
broadcast on 14 February 2005, where Rod Barton makes public his
decision to speak out about the disturbing political forces at play
behind the UN's search for Iraq's WMD.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20050218/
Imran Khan - 2006
After an unsuccessful start in politics, former cricket idol Imran
Khan is back, charming Pakistanis with his own brand of Islamic
democracy.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2006/imran_khan_200k.asx
15th August 2007 Imran Khan talks to Dateline about the future of
Pakistan. For six decades Pakistan has been an unholy mess that many
fear with India remains a time bomb waiting to explode.Even as it
rumbles towards a national election later this year, a military
dictator ship under Pervez Mushareff since 1999, it's recent history
has been punctuated by rising Muslim extremism.
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/130822/n/Imran-Khan-Interview
Fed 2008 - George Negus interviews Imran Khan on democracy and the
upcoming Pakistani elections.
GEORGE NEGUS: But Musharraf repeatedly claims that the elections will
be free and fair and he's the only one capable of fighting the Islamic
extremism.
IMRAN KHAN: George he is such a shameless liar, I mean he lies so
blatantly, so shamelessly that it shocks people like us. The entire
state machinery today in Pakistan is moving to make his pro-government
candidates win the elections. It is so blatant that in the local news
papers you saw policeman putting up posters of the pro-government
candidates, it's that blatant. Every opposition party that is fighting
the elections is saying that there is massive rigging going on. So
this charade that we are seeing, the so-called free and fair
elections, every Pakistani is under no illusion that this will be the
most rigged elections in our history. We call it the mother of all
rigging .
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/transcript/id/540358/n/Interview-with-Imra n-Khan
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Apr 15, 10:25�pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
The bottom line to me is:
No freedom of religion or the right to choose one's religion or the
ability to leave it (or will be sentenced to death). In many
countries--for women no control over one's body, no control over
choice of spouse, of education, of life, of travel, of work in most
cases, women have no equal rights to men, beating women and worse is
part of Quranic text, nine year old girls forced to marry old men,
forced wearing of burqas or abayas with head scarves for forced
coverage in many countries. Forced genital mutilation IS Islamic
practice in many countries no matter the reason. Enforced sharia law,
and the desire by fundamentalists to impose sharia law upon all
others. A certain percentage of Muslims themselves do not want sharia
law, but have no choice. These things are dictated by interpretations
of the Quran by Imams.
No amount of political bias against the US changes these facts.
Separate issues.
I read Hirsi Ali's book, INFIDEL. This description, says it all for
me:
http://tinyurl.com/daw3o
Jasmyn
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On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:34:29 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
Those darn interpreters!
Find out why the interpreters were not sent packing and you will
also
probably find the cause to today's nonsense. They were / are the
people
in charge!!!
No matter how ridiculous, if the ruling party says "jump" the
people go
and follow suit. The majority, that is (otherwise they jump on the
leaders
and topple them instead).
Here are a couple more links for this thread. The first is to show
what it
takes to challenge some of the literal interpretations of the Bible -
maybe
what the scarecrow thought he didn't have - until convinced by the
Wizard
of Oz he did - and the second ... I rest my case.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/christianity/bible101.shtml
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/menu.shtml
It's not a personal rebuke to your last post (Jasmyn) what I offer
here,
but it's more in support for what you shared. I'm carrying the torch a
bit
farther though, & hoping to enlighten others by putting one in every
cave
of darkness no matter the name, or "religion", at the door.
Maybe sometimes the interpreters get it wrong? And we, the people,
need to hold them accountable? Or, maybe (we, the people) also need
to hold ourselves accountable? for interpreting truth according to
what
truly is not?
Hmm .... What's wrong with this picture?
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/christianity/fraudinname.shtml
I thought some of the things you mentioned were truly horrible.
Like
what they do to women. As Soul though, if we are born into particular
families, cultures and traditions then that becomes the front to our
war
on karma (IMO). That is each our own battle to fight, so to speak, and
like Arjuna in the Bhagavadgita, it's only for each individual to
fight and
not have others fighting for us (especially if another person or
country,
with it's own karma to deal with) instead. I'm not saying it doesn't
sound
clearly ridiculous what some people advocate in the name of religion,
but looking at the fact that it's the members of religion and
relationship
with their leaders that has to be looked at. I'd go further to say
that one
could learn a lot by looking at the relationship between leaders and
the
"God" they worship, too. Whatever is done though, it is for the
followers
to do (IMO), because oftentimes the followers are the ones giving
power
to the leaders.
With everybody singing a different tune leading to truth these
days,
maybe it will turn out good in the end if this allows people to pick
and
choose for themselves. Maybe this is what points to the deeper issue.
Do people have a choice? And if one is born into a certain country, or
religion (for whatever reason) is there any escape (If escape should
be-
come the path of choice, is escape an option)?
Whether Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim, Indian, Catholic, Christian or
whatever (Eckankar included) there's probably global karma happening
at the same time between all of these names and what they mean. Not
only to one another, but what they mean to each individual member too.
In my opinion.
Everything seems to point to the leader. Their high position and
their
closeness with God. Everybody seems to be "following the leader" (the
person they choose) in hopes of reaching some heavenly "Happy Place".
Question is (IMO), when the leader is just another person like the
rest
of us ... when the leader is human and subject to err ... so too are
all
the people who follow them! Unless, of course, they have the freedom
to choose for themselves. So when a "Pied Piper" tries to send them
over a cliff (or off to war to fight the infidel or, better yet, off
to fight war
on "Terror") they can weigh what it this truly means and decide what
to
do for themselves. I think a lot of times there are better choices and
a
better "leader" with better ideas, but that aren't considered popular.
If Harold Klemp told someone to go and jump off a bridge, would it
matter when he said it? For example, before or after Harold became
a living Master? I think the timing very well could matter. That,
until a
person actually becomes a master they could be speaking for some
other type of experience. I'm not sure about the details, but wasn't
it
something, or someone, that once told Harold Klemp to jump off of a
bridge? Does anybody remember who (or what) that was? Was it the
Kal? Was it Paul Twitchell? Did Harold have a choice in the matter?
Etznab
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On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:45:33 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
Those darn interpreters!
Find out why the interpreters were not sent
packing and you will also probably find the cause
to today's nonsense. They were / are the people
in charge!!!
No matter how ridiculous, if the ruling party says
"jump" the people go and follow suit. The majority,
that is (otherwise they jump on the leaders and
topple them instead).
Here are a couple more links for this thread.
The first is to show what it takes to challenge
some of the literal interpretations of the Bible -
maybe what the scarecrow thought he didn't
have - until convinced by the Wizard of Oz he
did - and the second ... I rest my case.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/christianity/bible101.shtml
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/menu.shtml
It's not a personal rebuke to your last post (Jasmyn)
what I offer here, but it's more in support for what you
shared. I'm carrying the torch a bit farther though, &
hoping to enlighten others by putting one in every cave
of darkness no matter the name, or "religion", at the door.
Maybe sometimes the interpreters get it wrong?
And we, the people, need to hold them accountable?
Or, maybe (we, the people) also need to hold ourselves
accountable? for interpreting truth according to what
truly is not?
Hmm .... What's wrong with this picture?
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/christianity/fraudinname.shtml
I thought some of the things you mentioned were
truly horrible. Like what they do to women. As Soul though,
if we are born into particular families, cultures and traditions
then that becomes the front to our war on karma (IMO). That
is each our own battle to fight, so to speak, and like Arjuna
in the Bhagavadgita, it's only for each individual to fight and
not have others fighting for us (especially if another person
or country, with it's own karma to deal with) instead. I'm not
saying it doesn't sound clearly ridiculous what some people
advocate in the name of religion, but looking at the fact that
it's the members of religion and relationship with their leaders
that has to be looked at. I'd go further to say that one could
learn a lot by looking at the relationship between leaders and
the "God" they worship, too. Whatever is done though, it is
for the followers to do (IMO), because oftentimes the followers
are the ones giving power to the leaders.
With everybody singing a different tune leading to truth
these days, maybe it will turn out good in the end if this
allows people to pick and choose for themselves. Maybe
this is what points to the deeper issue. Do people have
a choice? And if one is born into a certain country, or
religion (for whatever reason) is there any escape (If
escape should become the path of choice, is escape
an option)?
Whether Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim, Indian, Catholic,
Christian or whatever (Eckankar included) there's probably
global karma happening at the same time between all of
these names and what they mean. Not only to one another,
but what they mean to each individual member too. In my
opinion.
Everything seems to point to the leader. Their high
position and their closeness with God. Everybody
seems to be "following the leader" (the person they
choose) in hopes of reaching some heavenly "Happy
Place". Question is (IMO), when the leader is just
another person like the rest of us ... when the leader
is human and subject to err ... so too are all the people
who follow them! Unless, of course, they have the
freedom to choose for themselves. So when a "Pied
Piper" tries to send them over a cliff (or off to war to
fight the infidel or, better yet, off to fight war on "Terror")
they can weigh what it this truly means and decide
what to do for themselves. I think a lot of times there
are better choices and a better "leader" with better
ideas, but that these aren't always considered so
popular.
If Harold Klemp told someone to go and jump
off a bridge, would it matter when he said it? For
example: Before or after Harold became a living
Master? I think the timing very well could matter.
That, until a person actually becomes a master
they could be speaking for some other type of
experience. I'm not sure about the details, but
wasn't it something, or someone, that once told
Harold Klemp to jump off of a bridge? Does any-
body remember who (or what) that was? Was it
the Kal? Was it Paul Twitchell? Did Harold have
a choice in the matter?
Etznab
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Apr 17, 7:45�am, Etznab <...@aol.com
Hi Etznab. I don't have much time today if this post doesn't make much
sense, am on a car trip and need to check out of the hotel and get on
the road. :)
Your links are interesting, and a lot to consider and look into.
But this other subject of Islam today and it's affects on people is a
touchy subject. If someone points things out they are accused of
something and called names...like Geert Wilders. In many cases I think
people are ignorant to the full extent of verses in Quran, Hadith and
Suras that call for establishing Islamic sharia law over all peoples
in all places. A long YouTube which runs an hour and a half (but can
be stopped and restarted at the same spot later) tells more about the
verses and their impact:
Long YouTube: Islam: What the West Needs to Know:
http://tinyurl.com/2b8cn7
Sorry if it's hard to watch, but don't blame the messengers.
Of course there are many good people in that religion who wish to have
reform to bring their teachings into the current century of more
freedoms. I think being honest about it is step one.
I just read a small quote from a booklet I picked up at the seminar
'Ancient Wisdom for Today', which I don't know how to equate to this
subject, but somehow it does:
"This Is a Warring Planet,
but That's OK"
"What does the future hold? Unfortunately for those utopians who
believe we can have heaven on earth, our planet is a warring planet.
Any period of peace will be followed by one of conflict. It is the
nature of the lower worlds to have life and death, joy and suffering.
The only way we can have heaven on earth is if our consciousness
resides on the Soul Plane. Though we are in a physical body, our
attention is on the love of God. Thus we are in this world, but not
of it."
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On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:38:07 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On Apr 17, 6:45 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
"I'm not sure about the details, but wasn't it something,
or someone, that once told Harold Klemp to jump off of
a bridge? Does anybody remember who (or what) that
was? Was it the Kal? Was it Paul Twitchell? Did Harold
have a choice in the matter?"
To clarify a little, I went back and read about this event
in the book: Child in the Wilderness. I got the impression
nobody "told" Harold to jump in the river, but that Harold
convinced himself that was something to do. It would be
a way to face his fear of death, etc. It took place at some
point in time after the God Realization experience on the
bridge. I'll probably have to read that book again, as some
things about the timeline weren't definitely clear. Like, the
time of the year when all of this took place. It seemed to
have happened after the 1970 Midwest Chicago Seminar.
In other places I saw "early spring" mentioned (the water
in the river still had chunks of ice floating in it). February
might have been mentioned someplace, but I'm not sure
and will have to go back and read it again.
One thing that seemed clear was the year 1970 for the
God-Realization experience, as I believe Harold gave that
year in his other book: Soul Travelers Of The far Country,
too.
What I'm not sure about is the month of the year when
Harold Jumped in the river. And how long after the other
experience of God-realization on the bridge.
What does it have to do with this thread topic? Not so
much, except it's connected with the recent post where I
mentioned "interpreters". Examples: in the book, Harold
Klemp had to interpret a number of different things going
on around him. Some of which he acted on, whether right
or wrong. Recounting those experiences, years later, and
writing about them in a book required more interpretation
(in hindsight), I suspect. Other examples of "interpretation"
have to do with people looking at things "after the fact", &
whether the person who experienced it, or someone else
looking back on that experience.
It was a very dramatic example of interpretation of things
(the first example I gave) related to "God", by a single person,
Harold Klemp, and it was the best example I could think of at
the time when reflecting on the subject of "interpreters" and
interpretation of "God".
The greater the time span between events and the stories
about them, the greater the chances that the stories details
will change, IMO. This goes back to the topic of the Middle
East where, in my first response to this thread topic, I wrote
(in part):
"Practically the whole world has known invasion and the
taking over of indigenous people, land and resources. How
much of this practice has it's roots in religious ideology?
How much of this is justified in the name of God? These
are the questions I am looking at. Because so long as the
practice seems popular and OK, IMO it will continue.
"What is even more amazing, to me, is how a lot of
new organized religions (compared with older indigenous
cultures) is not any more credible. Even the "modern" has
converted the older to an extent the older people, cultures,
and ways of life are called savage!
"Looking at the damage to this planet from technology,
the damage to people ... I'd say there is another type of
savage living with us. And it's not the people living in
harmony with nature."
The lands of the Middle East don't (not all of them) have
the "Separation of Church & State" as it might be known
in the U.S.A. And when you go back far enough in time, it
(religion) even appears to be one of the very first forms of
government to be found. Examples:
What did people believe about "God"?
Did it speak to people?
Did it appoint rulers?
What did it say?
Bibles and Holy books are filled with answers to these
& other questions. They also tell stories, and give history.
How do any of these things compare with the truth, & how
well do they match what actually took place in the past?
These are some of the questions I want to ask myself, in
connection with what is going on with the Middle East &
in connection with interpreting the past.
Speaking about threads, here is a quote about one. The
first sentence is probably familiar enough to most people
in Eckankar. How about second sentence?
"ECK is thus the thread, so fine as to be invisible yet
so strong as to be unbreakable, that binds together all
beings in all planes, all universes, throughout all time
and beyond all time into eternity. It is the thread that has
woven the history of this world and other worlds, binding
events together, so that each generation can understand
the past karmic effects that will dominate its present life."
Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook (1971), p. 69, 10th
Printing - 1983.
Etznab
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