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It Is What It Is - The Discourses of Rumi - Intro
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Anonymous Wrote:
Years ago I posted to alt.religion.eckankar sections from my book, The
Silent Questions and also my other book The Whole Truth, before they
were published. I thought I might do this with my new book, It Is What
It Is - The Discourses of Rumi, if folks on ARE would find this
interesting. I also look forward to feedback.
Here is the intro to the book. It is a bit long for a post, but I
thought it would be best to include the whole thing.
If more about the book sounds interesting, let me know. I was thinking
about posting one of the discourses every two or three weeks. Let me
know what you think.
We should be printing the new book later this year, by the way. So,
this is a sneak preview.
Doug.
Introduction
Recognized by many as the greatest mystical poet of Islam, Jalal al-
Din Rumi (1207-1273) communicated something through his writing that
has attracted spiritual seekers from almost every religion in the
world, for hundreds of years. Even in his day, Rumi was sought out by
merchants and kings, devout worshipers and rebellious seekers, famous
scholars and common peasants, men and women. At his funeral, Muslims,
Christians, Jews, Arabs, Persians, Turks and Romans honored him.
Listen to his call for seekers of truth:
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshiper,
Lover of leaving.
It doesn’t matter.
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come, even if you have broken
Your vow a hundred times.
Come, yet again, come, come.
Rumi’s love and honor for all religious traditions was not always
popular in his day, and often provoked criticism from the more
dogmatic. A story is told that one such public challenge came from a
Muslim dignitary, Qonavi, who confronted Rumi before an audience. "You
claim to be at one with 72 religious sects," said Qonavi, "but the
Jews cannot agree with the Christians, and the Christians cannot agree
with Muslims. If they cannot agree with each other, how could you
agree with them all?" To this Rumi answered, "Yes, you are right, I
agree with you too."
Although kings were his followers, Rumi’s critics could never
understand why Rumi’s greatest love and dedication went to what they
called, "the tailors, the cloth-sellers, and the petty shopkeepers –
uncouth and uncultured ruffians." Yet even amongst his dearest
companions, Rumi allowed no vanity. The story is told that one day,
while Rumi was in deep contemplation, surrounded by his disciples, a
drunkard walked in shouting and stumbling. The man staggered toward
Rumi and fell on him. To Rumi’s followers such a disgrace of their
teacher was intolerable, and they rose as one to rush the ignorant
fool. Rumi stopped them with his raised hand, saying, "I thought this
intruder was the one who was intoxicated, but now I see it is not he,
but my own students who are drunk!"
There are thousands who believe that Rumi’s presence (baraka) still
exists today, and still teaches. If this is true, it is certainly
largely due to the remarkable vitality that can be found in his
writings and poetry. There is a relevancy they contain that reaches to
our inner core. Rumi’s poetry has captured the hearts of spiritual
seekers around the world because of its depth and beauty. His verses
sketch out the whole panorama of life, from human sorrow and devotion,
to the universal breadth of God’s hidden plan. His poetry seems
fathomless and endless.
Rumi has also left to us another manuscript that is not so well known
– the collection of discourses given during gatherings with his
students. It Is What It Is (Fihi ma Fihi) is a record of these
spiritual discussions that often accompanied music, the reciting of
sacred poems and phrases, and the now famous Whirling Dervish exercise
that Rumi originated to enliven and bring spiritual opening to the
rather somber people of Konya, Turkey, in his day.
This present book is edited and rewritten from A. J. Arberry’s
original English translation, published in 1961 as Discourses of Rumi.
Arberry himself admitted that his scholastic, literal, work "is not an
easy book to read...and the original is by no means easy always to
understand." According to more recent studies of the original
manuscript (Chittick and Shah, for example,) Arberry’s translation
also has technical errors, and better understandings of Rumi’s subtle
spiritual teachings have come to light. I hope this edition will help
illuminate and clarify such passages, and to build on Professor
Arberry’s contribution.
If you were to compare the original manuscript of Rumi’s discourses
with this present book, the first change you might notice would be the
dropping of phrases like, "may Allah bless him and give him peace,"
after every reference to a saint or prophet, which was the proper and
respectful way of speaking in Rumi’s day, and still is today in some
parts of the world. Also, Rumi makes numerable references to the Koran
and quotes from it frequently. Since Rumi’s listeners knew the Koran
well, such quotes were familiar and personal brush strokes. However,
to many readers of this book this will not be so. Therefore, I have
removed a few quotes that could prove confusing to those who do not
know the Koran, or that might disturb the direction of Rumi’s message.
Rumi’s reference to God is always deeply personal. Whether he uses the
masculine term "Allah," or refers to God as "The Beloved," it is
nearness and closeness to God that Rumi is expressing. Unfortunately,
the English language has no personal, neutral pronoun for God. To
always use "He" in referring to God, to mankind, or to any general
person, was common practice when Arberry released his edition, but
seems too masculine today. In Rumi’s Persian language, "God" has no
gender, and Rumi’s symbolic portrayal of God uses images of the Lover,
and the Ocean, as often as the King. Therefore, I have used "It" to
refer to God in places, to help rise above gender, but have also used
"He" and "Beloved" to communicate the personal closeness of Rumi’s
message.
The flow, rhythm and impact of Rumi’s images are what I have tried to
preserve, over everything else. These inner subtleties are,
paradoxically, more important than the apparent point he is making.
For example, in discourse “Twenty-Six” Rumi says, "Beware! Do not say,
‘I have understood.’ The more you understand and grasp these words,
the farther you will be from understanding them. Their meaning comes
in not understanding." Such insights can not be explained, we must
catch them inwardly, with only the subtle clues that Rumi leaves to
guide us.
Follow Rumi closely in this way, and you will see a string that holds
one pearl to the next on this necklace. Each story, each image, is a
new moment in Rumi’s discourse, yet rarely is it broken from the last
moment. Step by step, Rumi is dancing. We must be limber and flexible
in our consciousness to follow without losing that thread. Yet, hidden
in the rhythm and pattern of Rumi’s dance is his true intention.
Even today, Rumi challenges many of our basic cultural assumptions,
and often in ways we could miss if we aren’t careful. It is easy to
make the mistake of rejecting an idea on the grounds that it is out of
date, or that it sounds merely like a traditional, orthodox opinion. I
would caution about ever jumping to this conclusion with Rumi, since
you will more likely find that he has caught you making the very same
error. I have tried to add commentary to help reflect some of the
subtler aspects of his discourses.
For example, in discourse “Twelve,” Rumi asks the question, "If a
saint, who carries God’s secret jewel [spiritual grace], strikes
someone and breaks their nose and jaw, who is the wronged party?" Rumi
claims it is the saint who has been wronged. "Since the saint is
consumed in God, their actions are God’s actions. God is not called a
wrongdoer."
At first glance, this smacks of religious zealotry. The same sort that
brought about the killings and murders of the Inquisition and modern
day terrorism. No different than any other self-justified excuse.
Anyone can blame God for their own choices, we say. But read Rumi’s
words closely; he is not talking about justifying violence. He is
asking what makes an act right or wrong, good or bad. He is asking us
to look beneath our cultural ideas of right and wrong to see the true
cause: God’s will.
But the problem doesn’t stop here, since we have not yet caught Rumi’s
vision. Our culture rejects ideas of Absolute Right or Wrong. We have
learned that each person must decide for themselves what is true, and
no outside authority has the right to force their perspective on what
is God’s will. So, after centuries of petty religious battles and
church-state slaughters, we have tried to solve this problem socially
by placing personal rights above religious belief. In other words, we
still don’t believe the saint has the right to strike out.
Rumi knows all this and is way ahead. He goes on to say, "A westerner
lives in the West. An oriental comes to visit. The westerner is a
stranger to the oriental, but who is the real stranger? Is not the
oriental a stranger to all the West?" In other words, sure the idea of
a true saint using violence sounds strange and wrong to us, because it
is a stranger to our thoughts. But if this true saint speaks and acts
only from Truth, then who is the real stranger to Truth?
Rumi continues, "This whole world is but a house, no more. Whether we
go from this room to that room, or from this corner to that corner,
still are we not in the same house? But the saints who possess God’s
jewel have left this house, they have gone beyond. Mohammed said,
‘Islam began a stranger and will return a stranger as it began.’"
In this way, Rumi’s words come right through time and ask us today,
"Can you accept that a true Lover of God could carry God’s authority?
Can you see that, because of what they know, they will always be a
stranger to this world?" So who is out of date? Certainly anyone bound
by the culture of their time, anyone who is not moved by something
greater.
If you see what is happening here, you will see that Rumi is using our
own unexamined aversions and dislikes to teach us. Some of Rumi’s most
profound poetry is ignored because of such thorns, prompting him to
say, in discourse “Thirty-Five”: "How wonderfully gracious God is! IT
sets a seal on those who listen and do not understand, argue and yet
learn nothing. God is gracious. Its wrath is gracious, and even Its
lock is gracious. But Its lock is nothing next to Its unlocking, for
the grace of that is indescribable. If I shatter into pieces, it is
through the infinite grace of God’s unlocking."
This raises an interesting observation. Rumi was never general in his
discussions, he always spoke to specific situations. He addressed the
particular beliefs and conflicts of those around him. He was a witness
and spokesman for The Way as it was manifesting in his day. And still
his words can teach us now.
If a traveler tripped over a rock in their path 700 years ago, and
from this event altered the course of their life, we might conclude
the rock was only incidental. But if that same rock trips thousands,
through the centuries, each walking away with a different message and
a different lesson, then can we call this an accident? When foolish
people trip, they get up and walk away as if nothing happened. They
learn nothing. A wise person finds the greater meaning for their fall.
But a rock that trips travelers in every age, each time imparting a
different meaning, that is not just a rock. That is God.
Many of the terms Rumi uses have a very different meaning in their
Islamic context than they do in their Christian sense. For example,
the word "belief" amongst many Sufis is much closer to what we might
call "knowingness." This is not the same as "faith," which often
refers to a person’s hopes. The Quakers had a term known as
"convincement" that expresses some of this, but still betrays too much
of our own choice in the matter. As Rumi uses the word "belief," he is
talking more about the effect of having experienced something that
changes how we see life, than he is talking about having been sold on
some doctrine.
Likewise, when Rumi refers to Islam, he is talking about The Way. He
is not talking about the preconceived notions that people have about
Islam today, or even in his day, but the spiritual path itself and the
religious tradition.
It is not always easy to understand this as Rumi meant it, just as
Rumi’s use of Mohammed as the Prophet and Voice of God is easily
interpreted as traditional belief, which is only the outward cloak of
what Rumi is really saying. It is just this sort of blindness that
Rumi is speaking to when he says, in discourse “Seventy”: "Wherever
men or women put a big lock, that is a sign of something precious and
valuable. Just like the snake that guards a treasure, do not regard
what repels you, but look instead at the preciousness of the
treasure."
Rising above the forms of religion, Rumi touches the universal. This
is why so many countries and followers have claimed him as their own –
because he speaks to our hearts and lifts our vision to the essence
behind all faiths and beyond all borders. Even in recent times, we
find followers of Sant Mat and the Radhasoamis of India have adopted
him as a Sat Guru, and students of Eckankar consider him an ECK
Master. This is how Rumi would have wanted it, since he taught that
Truth crosses beyond man-made labels and boxes.
I think religious historians have done a disservice by categorizing
Rumi as a Sufi, Milarepa as a Tibetan Buddhist, Kabir as a Muslim, and
Guru Nanak as a Sikh. These were teachers who towered above such
definitions and refused to classify themselves. They were not bound by
customs or traditions. They lived and taught from states of
consciousness that demonstrated both individualism and universalism in
full expression. They showed both humanity and divinity, and rejected
the vanity and egotism that divides people into factions. They were
citizens of all worlds, and friends with all lovers of God.
As Rumi says in discourse “Two”:
“There is a saying that the saint is one, humankind is a hundred,
meaning the saint’s whole attention remains upon the one truth, while
people are scattered over a hundred appearances. But which hundred?
Which fifty? Which sixty? Lost in this world of mirrored reflections,
they are a faceless people without hands and feet, without mind and
Soul, quivering like a magic talisman, like quicksilver or mercury.
They do not know who they are. Call them sixty or a hundred or a
thousand, and the saint is one, but is not this view a trial itself?
For the truth is that the hundreds are nothing, while the saint is a
thousand, and a hundred thousand, and thousands of thousands.”
A transmission of divine grace flowed through the teachers I named
above. It poured out into the world. You can see it in the words of
their closest followers, who were often overwhelmed by such feelings
of love that lifted them up to a majestic view of all Life. Kings and
royalty bowed down to their inner authority, and the uneducated
understood the bread of life these spiritual leaders were giving.
But after they left this world, the subtle force that bathed their
students receded, and their literal words became the focus of their
teachings. Their exact phrases were then deemed sacred and this became
the doctrine followed, rather than the spiritual currents themselves.
This was never what these teachers wanted, but often this is all that
historians and later day students can see. For this reason, I have
tried to restore the inner power behind the words with this
translation and add some commentary, to help recapture that experience
of drinking from the fresh stream in Rumi’s presence.
I think it is more accurate to say that these teachers, who speak from
inner authority and bow down only to the source of Life, belong to the
same teaching. They should not be assigned to separate religions. This
gives a truer picture. It is the followers who create the hundreds of
separate philosophies, theories, religious traditions and lineages
that amount to nothing, as Rumi said, because they do even know
themselves. But the saints whose vision is focused upon the root of
the root of the root of religion have arrived at the universal
essence.
So, we can say that Christ was never a Christian, Buddha was never a
Buddhist and Mohammed never a Muslim, because what they followed was
alive, and not the doctrine that their followers preach. As Paul
Twitchell said, it is not the words of the Masters we should try to
emulate, but their state of consciousness.
In fact, devotees of religion often significantly diverge from what
their own founders first taught. For example, few westerners realize
that Mohammed never condoned war to convert others to Islam, and in
fact said, “there is no compulsion in religion,” making it clear that
force should never be used to change a person’s beliefs and no one
should be converted by the sword. Mohammed was never the aggressor in
battle and specifically forbade his followers from attacking first,
but said that war was only just and holy when fought to defend against
aggressors.[1]
The true Masters tell us over and over again that it is not words left
in books that are important, but the awareness gained through personal
inner experience that we should seek. This goes far beyond names and
forms, doctrines and holy books.
Take the title of Rumi’s discourses as an example. Fihi ma Fihi, was
translated by Arberry to In It What Is In It, but I believe It Is What
It Is comes closer to Rumi’s intent. In any case, this title is filled
with multiple meanings, just as all of Rumi’s works are. This may be a
foreign idea, that someone could be communicating many things at many
levels, at the same time, but let us look closely at this title for a
moment.
First, it is making a very specific, physical reference. "It," meaning
this manuscript, is the same as what is in "It," meaning Rumi’s most
famous work, his six volume poem, the Masnavi. In other words, the
Fihi ma Fihi provides explanations and keys to unlock the meaning of
the Masnavi. The two works were written parallel to each other, and
contain many references and stories that are continued from one to the
other. This being true, it is quite surprising that Rumi’s discourses
have not gained more attention. But this is only one of the title’s
meanings, and by no means the most important.
At another level, It Is What It Is asks us not to put into this
manuscript more or less than what it is. It is not clothed in the high
cloth of religious sanctity, nor does it speak as some authority. Rumi
wants us simply to see it for what it is. He wants us to be
emotionally honest and not to get carried away with the form. In other
words, don’t become attached to the beauty of this vase, it is merely
a holder of The Rose.
At the same time, "IT" refers to God. Therefore God is what God is.
This is the same as the Muslim saying, "There is no God but God." In
other words, Rumi asks, "What more is there to say?" All the words
here, all the stories and explanations are saying nothing more than
this. There is no more to reality than reality. God is. Reality is. It
is what it is. Explanations cannot explain it. Words cannot reveal it.
And so, "It," meaning the manuscript, is what "IT," meaning God or
reality, is. Therefore, the Fihi ma Fihi is cut from the same cloth as
reality, it is the same substance as God.
If you can see these many meanings, all swimming like fish in the
ocean that is the title, then you will know how to read Rumi. May it
also help you catch real fish as well.
– Doug Marman
[1] Jihad dar Islam (Holy War in Islam) is the title of a book written
by Ayatollah Salehi Najafabadi of Iran, recently translated into
English, that makes a thorough exploration of Mohammed’s words and
actions. The book shows clearly that the modern misrepresentation of
Jihad began over a hundred years after Mohammed by a series of cruel
Caliphs who greedily wanted to expand their empires. They used the
name of religion and their interpretations of the words of the Koran
to justify their violent aggression. This is nothing new, as we’ve
seen the same thing down through history, across all corners of the
world, with all religions.
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On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:48:31 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
Doug,
Sounds exciting to me that you are writing about Rumi.
I'd be very interested to preview the book here at A.R.E.
The last paragraph aside (since it is not only with Islam
where this has happened - nations going against their God
and Holy writings. Example: Thou Shalt Not Kill.) I thought
there was something about Rumi that came through to me
when reading your words about him and some translations
of his writings. I got the sense this person was a true poet.
One who knew that it was up to each individual to liberate
themselves. All this man could do was help provide a path
for that to happen. A path for people to walk and learn the
meaning of it for themselves. A form of labyrinth, perhaps?
Etznab
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On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:40:03 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On Apr 28, 10:48 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
Sounds good to be ,.,... great to hear it is being put into print as a
book too doug, excellent!
cheers sean
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:47:51 -0400, "Ken" <...@NowHere.net
Hi Doug. I look forward to reading 'It Is What It Is' here on a.r.e. I
read your online version years ago and enjoyed it greatly.
--
Ken
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:58:40 -0700 (PDT), Kinpa <...@yahoo.com
On Apr 28, 1:47 pm, "Ken" <...@NowHere.net
i too have read your online version and enjoyed and benefited from it
greatly, cant wait to read it again here...
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Anonymous Wrote:
It will be interesting reading, Doug, thanks.
I read a little about Muhammed's life in the links below, just started
to look at it recently, don't know in which ways these interpretations
differ from the book you refer to.....
History - The Life of Muhammad:
http://tinyurl.com/omjmh
The Myths of Muhammad:
http://tinyurl.com/cp53bk
and other articles on the pulldown at the top entitiled - about Islam:
http://tinyurl.com/f4lcp
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Anonymous Wrote:
Jasmyn,
The information in these links you provided are at polar opposites
with the article I was referring to.
I've done enough studying to know that much of what the web pages you
refer to are simply wrong, or at best highly negative interpretations
of the facts.
Right from the beginning, when the first article said that the Arabs
of Mohammad's time were missing out on the Greek revival and
renaissance going on at the time, I knew we had wandered into
propaganda, not truth.
The Greek revival that the "Christian" world was going through, and
the resulting Renaissance, didn't start until about 600-700 years
after Mohammad. It was the printing press that spread the ancient
Greek texts that the Catholic Church had kept suppressed. At the time
of Mohammad, the Christian world was entering its Dark Ages, due to
religious oppression. Europe largely was lifted by Islamic influences
out of its Medieval times, since Islam flourished for hundreds of
years while the rest of Europe languished.
The article I referred to was a detailed academic study of all of
Mohammad's comments, the words from the Koran and stories about him.
They showed that there were no cases where he was the aggressor, but
that he only fought after he was being attacked. The article deals
with many of the same "early Muslim historians" that the web sites you
referred to discussed. The author of the article I mentioned showed
how they were in error in their opinions and why.
While these web site refer to the early records and Mohammad's words,
they falsely claim that what they are reporting are facts, when they
are purely interpretations. In the article I quoted, you can see the
arguments presented for both sides, and explanations for why the
traditional interpretations have been wrong.
One needs to dig to get to the truth, and the web sites you quoted
seems intent on presenting Islam in the worst light, and playing on
traditional myths. I am no expert, but I can see why most Muslims
would disagree what these web pages said, as they themselves admit.
This is my take on it, anyway.
Thanks.
Doug.
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:42:13 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
, don't know in which ways these interpretations
Aisha, Muhammad’s favorite wife, later insisted that it was not a
physical journey (Ibn Ishaq 265) and there has always been controversy
within Islam about whether it was a physical or “spiritual” visit.
At this point, Muslims (who claim that theirs is the most “scientific”
of religions) fall back on the idea that Muhammad visited Jerusalem
“in spirit”... whatever that means.
At the time, the Meccans mocked Muhammad for claiming to have visited
Jerusalem in one night, since it was a one month journey to get there
and back. In fact, “many Muslims gave up their faith,” according to
his biographer (Ibn Ishaq 265). But had the Meccans only known how
big the universe really is, then they most certainly would have chosen
to mock Muhammad’s claim to have visited the gates of heaven in the
same dream as well – and it is doubtful that anyone would have
believed him at that point.
<SIGH
this from a post on the same day .... ???
We study dreams in Eckankar. We pay a lot of attention to dreams.
And I've written a series of dream discourses for the members of
Eckankar. The study of dreams shows the connection between the
divine
and the mundane. There's a hidden connection between the visible and
the invisible, and there's this place where the two meet. The two
meet in our state of consciousness.
{ unless one is camel herder apparently ?? -- but if ur name is Joseph
and a slave in Egypt -- well that's an entirely different kettle of
fish }
<double sigh>
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Apr 30, 3:42 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Joseph wasn't a warlord, lived a life of love, peace and kindness,
didn't conquer lands and other religions in the name of his own.
Though the relevancy of Joseph escapes me, if anything compare
Muhammad to other founders of religions--Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc.--
other religion founders had no history of war and conquest. What many
scholars tell us of Muhammad is somewhat shocking, that he was a
warlord, a conqueror of other peoples, lands and religions, forced
conversions, and enslaved women and others.
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 05:50:23 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
There are popular versions of history and what happened
so many years ago. However, this doesn't mean the stories
are factual, credible and true. IMO.
At the same time, stories influence millions whether true
or not. Finding the differences between legend, myth, fable
and pseudo history take great effort today. Especially when
referring to timeline events hundreds & thousands of years
ago.
It is easy enough to give an opinion about the reported &
purported history and news, because it doesn't necessarily
require validation of whether a story is true. At least, most
people it seems don't even want to "go there". People don't
want to take the time, the trouble and the effort to uncover
the truth. Especially if it makes them many enemies.
To be honest though, about Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, etc.,
I can't say that the stories are based on facts. I can't say I
have seen all of those stories supported by credible facts.
This is not to put anybody down, but I find it laughable to
watch people debating ancient history when most of it has
people parroting propaganda. On both sides!
One of the things I keep bringing up is my belief that the
wars (many of them) which have been fought over the years
had / haveroots in religious ideology. Most particularly in
pseudo religious dogma and man-made inventions.
Think about this for a moment. If the world really had the
truth about God would the world continue to have so many
wars? Would the world continue in its ignorance?
A fair number of people (probably most of them young
children - souls having just arrived from the higher planes)
do not condone war. Even many adults - perhaps a world
majority - are not involved with the perpetuation of war games.
Of destroying the planet for corporate profit & many other
Kali Yuga-type occupations. Some people, in spite of the
errors of history & the names of their formal religion, are a
whole lot closer to knowing what is truly "God", IMO. Yet
there is always the popular history and the popular media
conglomerates. Well, maybe not always. Not since people
have seen the light and are challenging many of the once
monopolized media distribution outlets. Newspapers are
losing money in favor of the Internet. The TV & Internet
media sources are now having to compete in an arena of
world consciousness and public opinion. The avenues for
truth entering the news now are manifold, IMO. Of course
so is the opposite, but my hope is that truth will become
the more popular. And when tyrants torture people, they
will reap the karmic justice before all the world to see. I
also have the hope that pseudo history - and those who
knowingly propagate it (knowing it is fabricated) will meet
a similar fate.
These are what I consider some interesting quotes. Not
to say that they are true, or not. But interesting, at least
to me.
"In religion and politics, peoples beliefs and convictions are
in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without ex-
amination."
[Mark Twain]
"One should not expect, without having been reformed
himself, to attempt to reform another."
[Ayatollah Khomeini]
"For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative
Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second
question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though
scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is
but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and
a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the non-
physical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel,
a significant term and we shall use it. A more familar name,
however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of
matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of
energy? It is."
[Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
"According to its apologists, the Bible is a Hebrew refinement
of all pagan theologies and cosmologies, a process that com-
pletely obscured all knowledge of Causation and Creation. As
Bellamy says: 'But we must not forget that the report in Genesis
has only come down to us in its sublimated - and therefore from
the mythologists' standpoint, very unoriginal, not to say corrupted
- form. Nevertheless, if we listen carefully to the Hebrew wording
of the first verses in Genesis, we still find traces of the original
meaning which no priestly editor has been able to extirpate.' "
[Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 30]
"The one creative energy separated into two, positive
and negative, and their interaction produced something
luminous compared to the darkness of the absolute.
According to the New Testament this 'light shining in
darkness' was Christ, but actually it was Lucifer, the Son
of the Morning, of creation; in the power sense, none other
than the creator himself. It is the Hebrew concealment of
this fact that has hidden from us the true nature of Causation;
the result has been twenty-five centuries of spiritual ignorance."
[Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 31]
"According to their [Hindu] cosmology all evolutionary
forms were first created in mental, astral and etheric matter
in Involution, these serving later as models for the physical.
This does not mean that every form that has appeared in
Evolution was there in archetype, thus proving each a
permanent entity as some would like to believe; on the
contrary, the specie and kingdom prototypes were there
and their first evolutionary counterparts were endowed from
the beginning with the capacity for incalculable proliferation,
hence the myriads today. Be this as it may, to understand
the myths such as this we must cease to think of the earth
as of now and think in terms of a cosmic entity, invisible but
evolving and creating for trillions of years before it became a
visible, concrete object."
[Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 33]
"Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred
wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on
murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for
want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other
half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity
enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil?
that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it
exists for? This is the animal estate."
[Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
http://www.mirrorh.com/4quotes.html
Etznab
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Anonymous Wrote:
On May 1, 8:50 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------
Hey Etznab....study of the Quran itself tells us the history of
Muhammad.
Below I've quoted from Robert Spencer's "Blogging the Qur'an" in which
he goes through the Quran in a series from May 2007 through December
2008.
Blogging the Qur'an
by Robert Spencer
http://tinyurl.com/2mn6nl
Looking at the Qur’an: Sura 33, “The Confederates,” verses 1-27, for
example, seems to show Muhammad as a warlord and conquerer.
http://tinyurl.com/cdu8yn
July 7, 2008
Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 33, “The Confederates,” verses 1-27
“The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves”
This Medinan sura provides a principal foundation for the central role
of Muhammad, and hence of the Hadith (traditions of his words and
deeds), in the formulation of Islamic law. It also contains a dramatic
example of Allah’s solicitude for his prophet, further solidifying his
pivotal role.
In verses 1-8, Allah tells Muhammad not to listen to the unbelievers
and hypocrites (v. 1), but rather to follow divine inspiration (v. 2).
We get a hint of what this is about when Allah says that no man has
two hearts, a man cannot make his wife his mother, and a man cannot
make an adopted son a real son (v. 4). In those days men would divorce
their wives by telling them, “You are to me like the back of my
mother” – the Qur’an is here saying that this doesn’t affect any real
change or make them actually into their mothers, but the point here is
not about divorce. Rather, the passage is intended to end the practice
of adoption, starting with Muhammad’s own family. Ibn Kathir explains:
“This was revealed concerning Zayd bin Harithah…the freed servant of
the Prophet. The Prophet had adopted him before prophethood, and he
was known as Zayd bin Muhammad. Allah wanted to put an end to this
naming and attribution.” An adopted son should be known by the name of
his natural father: he can never truly enter into his adoptive
household (v. 5).
Why was Allah so intent on ending the practice of adoption? Because
Muhammad wanted to marry Zayd’s ex-wife, Zaynab bint Jahsh — and as a
result of his dalliance with his former daughter-in-law, says Maududi,
“the hypocrites and the Jews and the mushriks [unbelievers] who were
already bent on mischief would get a fresh excuse to start a
propaganda campaign against Islam.” So Allah here emphasizes that an
adopted son cannot be a true son, and so by extension Zaynab was never
really Muhammad’s daughter-in-law at all, and there is no cause for
scandal.
This sura will return to this subject later, but at this point it
turns, in verses 9-27, to a discussion of the Battle of the Trench.
Anticipating an attack by the pagan Arabs, whereupon Muhammad had a
trench dug around Medina. According to Muhammad’s earliest biographer,
Ibn Ishaq, once when Muhammad was helping the trench diggers, he
wielded a pick at a large rock, and every time he hacked at the rock,
lightning shot from the pick. One of the Muslims asked Muhammad: “O
you, dearer than father or mother [cf. v. 6], what is the meaning of
this light beneath your pick as you strike?”
Muhammad replied: “The first means that God has opened up to me the
Yemen; the second Syria and the west; and the third the east.”
As the Quraysh, along with another tribe, the Ghatafan (known
collectively in Islamic tradition as “the Confederates,” as in v. 20),
laid siege to Medina, the trench prevented the invaders from entering
the city. Yet the Muslims were unable to force them to end the siege.
Then to make matters even worse, a tribe of Jews in Medina, the Banu
Qurayzah, broke their covenant with Muhammad (perhaps after seeing how
Muhammad had exiled two other Jewish tribes, the Banu Qaynuqa and Banu
Nadir) and began collaborating with the Quraysh.
As the siege dragged on, according to Ibn Ishaq, one Muslim remarked
bitterly about Muhammad’s designs on the Persian empire of Chosroes
and the Byzantine empire of Caesar: “Muhammad used to promise us that
we should eat the treasures of Chosroes and Caesar and today not one
of us can feel safe in going to the privy!” Allah responded by saying
that those who complain that “Allah and His Messenger promised us
nothing but delusion!” have diseased hearts (v. 12). Allah accused
these hypocrites of demoralizing the Muslims and of treasonous
plotting with the enemies of Islam (vv. 13-14). Allah also told
Muhammad to tell the people that desertion would be useless (v. 16).
The Qurayzah agreed to attack the Muslims from one side while the
Quraysh besieged them from the other. But then a new convert to Islam,
Nu’aym bin Mas’ud, came to Muhammad offering to trick the Confederate
tribes, since his own people, the Ghatafan, did not know that he had
become a Muslim. Muhammad responded, according to Ibn Ishaq: “You are
only one man among us, so go and awake distrust among the enemy to
draw them off us if you can, for war is deceit.” Nu’aym’s deception
turned the Confederates against each other and against their Jewish
allies; soon afterward, they ended the siege. Nu’aym’s deception had
saved Islam.
According to Aisha, “When Allah’s Apostle returned on the day (of the
battle) of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench), he put down his arms and took a
bath. Then Gabriel whose head was covered with dust, came to him
saying, ‘You have put down your arms! By Allah, I have not put down my
arms yet.’ Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Where (to go now)?’ Gabriel said,
‘This way,’ pointing towards the tribe of Bani Quraiza. So Allah’s
Apostle went out towards them.”
Ibn Ishaq recounts that Muhammad addressed the Qurayzah Jews
contemptuously: “You brothers of monkeys, has God disgraced you and
brought His vengeance upon you?” (The Qur’an three times — 2:62-65;
5:59-60; and 7:166 — says that Allah transformed the disobedient Jews
into pigs and monkeys.) The Muslims laid siege to the Qurayzah
strongholds until, said Ibn Ishaq, the Jews “were sore pressed” and
Allah “cast terror into their hearts.” Muhammad entrusted the fate of
the tribe to the Muslim warrior Sa‘d bin Mu’adh, who decreed: “I give
the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children
and women should be taken as captives.”
Muhammad exclaimed: “O Sa‘d! You have judged amongst them with the
judgment of the King Allah.” According to Ibn Ishaq, “The apostle went
out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug
trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of the Qurayzah] and struck
off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in
batches.” Ibn Ishaq puts the number of those massacred at “600 or 700
in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900.” Ibn Sa‘d
says “they were between six hundred and seven hundred in number.”
One hadith summarizes Muhammad’s dealings with the three Jewish tribes
of Medina: “Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought (against the Prophet
violating their peace treaty), so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and
allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking
nothing from them till they fought against the Prophet again). He then
killed their men and distributed their women, children and property
among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted
them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from
Medina.”
The Qur’an refers obliquely to the massacre, saying that Allah “cast
terror” into the hearts of the People of the Book who aided the
pagans, “(so that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners” (v. 26).
Victory came from Allah alone (vv. 9-11).
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
What is the point that you are trying to make?
Do you think I'm some Anti-Semite that needs to
be taught (convinced) that Islam contains radical
elements?
There are murderers of all shapes and colors -
including those of Jewish descent. So what is the
point you are trying to drive home?
If I, or Sean, or anybody else speaks kindly of
Islam and Muslims does it automatically mean
we are condoning terrorism? You know that isn't
true.
I personally know, have met and have worked
for probably more Jewish people than the average
American. Some of the best people I know, and
have known called themselves Jews. But if some-
one goes and commits an act of terror, whathave-
you, I'm not gonna look the other way on account
of what race and/or country they are from. I give
people of Jewish and Muslim descent no special
treatment.
There was a time in America when blacks were
considered sub-human. And I can tell you this is
not an extinct belief. It is not my belief personally,
but is an example of one race holding themselves
high above another. I don't go for that. I don't go for
that in religion either. Including Eckankar!
So if I (or others) look at world events from per-
spectives and angles different from you and Rich
S. don't take it personal.
I've come to wake up more to the fact that truth
is not equivalent to what the largest media outlets
on the planet spout. That it's not equivalent to all
that a so-called "Superpower" says - as if this is
the meter for judging truth from lies. I'm beginning
to see how so much of history is colored by per-
sonal bias and national allegience. How media is
one of the biggest players on the world stage and
those who own media own tremendous power to
influence and sway the minds of millions. I'm not
saying that puplic opinion and public pressure
aren't becoming more powerful with each passing
day. Especially when people are not dependent
on a select number of sanctioned and censored
news mediums, but are gaining more and more
liberty to go right to the source for themselves.
I asked what was your point because I wasn't
sure why you responded like you did. Were you
responding to my post? What part of it? I'm not
sure.
Etznab
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Anonymous Wrote:
According to many of the latest historians, Jesus was a real
instigator of revolt against Rome, and expected that God would help
the Jews overturn the Romans.
Krishna, according to the Bhagavad Gita, was involved in battles and
war, and spoke about why it was wrong to avoid fighting when it was
necessary.
Buddha did seem the most peaceful of these, and Buddhism as a religion
seems to be more peaceful than most of the major religions. But when
you read the stories of many Zen Buddhist priests and their treatment
of Zen disciples, it boggles the mind.
I'm thinking that religion and conflict are often bedfellows.
I do agree that the Arab world where Mohammad lived was more war-like
than most. It was a very tribal area, and part of what he tried to do
(as I see it) was to break that tribal divisiveness and bring about a
common vision that rise above the primitive tribal beliefs.
However, I think Mohammad was much more of a spiritually realized
being than you have been led to believe, and this includes his
compassionate nature.
Rumi will offer many examples in his discourses, and if nothing else
you might catch his vision of who Mohammad was.
Doug.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 18:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
Doug,
I thought you brought some fair and balanced dialogue
to this thread. I enjoyed your recent posts.
You wrote: "One needs to dig to get to the truth" I agree
with that. I agree that a lot of people give up too soon, be-
cause that is the easier route to take. Unfortunately, that
doesn't make the treasure of truth jump out of the ground
and follow everyone who gave up looking. Instead, I think
people can walk away with their own experience of trying
to uncover the truth. Telling people they found it when, in
in reality, it remains hidden from their sight.
A story called The Tiger's Fang comes to mind. Where
a man claimed to have found something, but what he really
found was an imitation. A toy tiger's fang. But not the real
thing. In order to obtain the real thing he probably would of
had to challenge the Tiger - and put his own life at risk as
a result. Either that, or befriend the Tiger. Maybe he could
have simply gone there. Into the tiger's lair. And found an
actual tiger's fang that fell to the ground in the past. I don't
know for sure. What I remember is that a man was sent to
retrieve something, and he came back with an imitation.
BTW a popular name in India - Singh - is connected to
the name for "Lion", I believe. I'm not sure where Paul T.
really heard that story of the tiger's fang. Whether it was
one already in existence, whether a completely new one
someone told him, or one he came up with on his own -
for whatever reason. I think (in the book) he related how
someone told it to him.
One of the things I have learned is that the longer a
truth remains buried, the deeper it seems to get after
each generation is finished covering it with even more
of their garbage. With some cases it might reach the
point where nobody can be sure what is hidden under-
neath. Not without digging first.
Almost sounds like the perfect karmic justice. That
one can't get to the truth without removing generations
of ignorance and tradition first.
Now I'm thinking about the evolution of a trash heap.
How it might look if I could view in time-lapse-photo-
graphy the first article of refuse thrown on the ground
in a certain place. Followed by another, and another,
etc., etc. After a while people will see a pile and say
Hey! That must be where the garbage goes! Look how
much is already there! Next thing you know there is a
huge mountain of trash. Any trace of what was there
in the beginning is now covered over. So people could
tell stories about what used to be there. Maybe some
would contain actual truths, related to them by those
who once lived there before it became a garbage heap.
(I know, I know. It's a great analogy about how truth
gets easily covered over with so many people const-
antly dumping on it.)
I hope planet Earth doesn't go the way of Mars.
What kind of stories would parents on other planets
tell their children? That Earth was a planet of war?
The pyramids and other structures seen by their
telescopes are nothing but optical illusions?
I'm just kidding. I hope.
Etznab
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 21:56:43 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 3, 8:19 pm, Etznab <...@aol.com
I want to try and clarify some details from that
Tiger's Fang story. It was a cobbler who boasted
intimacy with God, and a prince who told him to
bring back a tiger's fang. God had spoken to the
prince and requested that he have the cobbler do
this thing. The cobbler (a shoemaker) did go to
the tiger's lair and try to kill it, hoping to get the
fang that way. But he woke the tiger and later he
ran for his life. Falling from exhaustion he came
upon an old tiger's fang on the ground, something
the prince recognized as a child's play thing. The
cobbler was then humbled and the prince began
to boast intimacy with God.
The person Paul Twitchell had relating that
story to him, it just happened to be Rumi.
Hope I clarified those details a little better. My
memory wasn't that good at first, so I had to go
back and check the book.
Etznab
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Here's a great website --- pass it on -- I don't know if it mentions
Rumi or Shams specifically though !
The Real Early Eckankar History -- Busting the False Myths About
ECKANKAR and the ECK Masters
http://tinyurl.com/ddx382
Hope you like it, cheers sean
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Apr 30, 12:59 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Sean,
You remember Tazuhu, don't you? He was the one found making a long
series of out and out lies.
Too many lies to list.
And unfortunately, he was obviously intentionally telling lies, which
is strange.
I guess that is where creativity is for some people - trying to mess
up history and other people's heads.
My guess is that you do remember this, but were posting this as an
example to show how ridiculous so-called factual reports can be.
Doug.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 17:24:18 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
Was that a typo, Doug? I got a total of 6 results for Tazuhu.
But 15 for Tuzahu, which I believe is the correct name for the
character you mentioned.
For the record.
Etznab
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Anonymous Wrote:
On May 3, 5:24 pm, Etznab <...@aol.com
Yes, a typo. I was just typing from memory and didn't have the web
page open when I wrote it.
By the way, an interesting fact. I've been re-reading the original
edition of The Far Country, and in most cases the word that Paul used
was Tazu. In a few cases it was Tuza. However, in later editions it
was completely changed to Tuza throughout the book.
That was one of the reasons why I probably typed it wrong.
Doug.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 22:21:29 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
I'm glad for that typo, because it led to my learning about
the word Tazu. That, and it reminded me about another word,
Tarzu, that Paul Twitchell reportedly used in The God Eaters
article, in the November 1964 issue of The Psychic Observer
(I think that was it).
My, how I would like to see what you have seen. The older
Eckankar books and manuscripts.
Etznab
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:35:38 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
What I read(mostly the first link) on this site was interesting but seemed
clearly biased, while this
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
speaks for itself.
` o
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Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:50:05 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On Apr 30, 6:35 pm, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
<SIGH
http://tinyurl.com/d6utpx
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:56:28 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
I watched the first and last one.
Not sure how the life of a super rich Prince of the Saudi Kingdom is related
to the list of attacks around the world _every_ single day, for *years*? I
searched backwards on the list about a couple of years and couldn't find one
day there wasn't one.
` o
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 04:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 1, 3:56 pm, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Aha, I see, the best parts was video # 2, 3, 4, and 5 <smile
iow the "whole truth" not just a small part.
Um, what's wrong with being super-rich Rich? hehehe
anyway, maybe the idea is that it has nothing to do with the attacks
around the world everyday -- it's a conservative nation run upon
Sharia Law ............ think about it. But first "listen" to what is
being said, and the pov of where they are coming from, including the
women.
Maybe you're just looking for the negatives, or are a half cup full
sort of a guy Rich? :-)
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:05:13 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
OK but neither does Australia or most countries have anything to do with the
attacks.
Yeah, I got that. That's fine for them. Would you have Sharia law
instituted is Australia?
I was looking for a positive, a day when they hadn't killed anyone. I did
jump back to 9/11 and there were a few days here and there where the cup was
not completely full.
Here's my view. Of all the major religions, Islam is by far the leader in
violence and killing of it's own, as well as to other, what I would consider
innocent people.
` o
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 2, 3:05 am, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
If Australia was culturally Muslim in 1901 .... that's what it would
be. Besides, the question is "moot".
The saudis don't tell me to be muslim, and I don't tell them to run
catholic boys high schools nor change their lifestyle to encorporate a
US style Spring Break or an Aussie Schoolies "fun activity" for their
youth.
Really I do not care whether they have a democratic system of
government or a british legal system. Neither are that perfect as it
is.
LOL
False Dichotomy mate! ;-)
and too narrow a view .......... humans have been around a long time.
I have heard all the arguments between Theists [ mainly loving
Christians ] and Atheists [ meaning Communists basically ] about who
killed more and when .... Muslims run a dead last in that race on any
analysis of the numbers. Actually second last before Buddhists.
cheers
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 15:02:37 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
OK, having a choice, would you prefer Sharia or a democratic based law to
live under?
Again, what does a Saudi Prince have to do with the list of Islamic
terrorist atacks?
Non sequitur.
Search on that list and tell me when was the last day in the world where
there wasn't one. Then we can laugh about it.
The list wasn't referring to the overall past, but since 2001, which is what
my view concerned. My awareness of Muslims began in the 1970's when I worked
with two "Persians", and experience the oil embargo and the Iranian hostage
debacle.
` o
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 19:29:45 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 3, 11:02 am, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Rich, a time frame since 2001 is too narrow a view ... no one operates
in a vacume.
The website is presenting data in a non-holisitic perspective,
therefore it presents false claims, and draws irrational conclusions.
cheers
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 22:57:49 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
I was referring to the list itself. Not the claims or conclusions of the
biased website.
` o
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Anonymous Wrote:
On May 1, 2:12 pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Could it ever be okay to put each Australian's individual human rights
in the hands of fundamentalist religious (sharia) law makers?
Interesting YouTube:
Muslim Demographics:
http://tinyurl.com/d7cnsa
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
I see you like the Red Pill ......
I shop locally .... lebanese muslim across the street, syrian muslim
at the corner, bangdalesh muslim next door to them, malaysian mulsims
down the other end, and on and on it goes ..... all very nice people,
all very good citizens, none of the women have had clitorectemoies ...
I asked.
Get over it.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:39:07 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
JD, it might be helpful to you if I explain somethings very clearly to
you.
I don't play mind games.
I don't manipulate people.
I don't proselytize.
I don't deceive others, or myself.
And I can think for myself quite well.
You are not very good at answering honest questions, and you are not
very good at asking them either, IMO.
Have whatever kind of day you wish to have.
Cheers Sean
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 2, 4:12 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
a side example of ....
Is there more crime in the USA than anywhere else, or are the coppers
just so much better at catching crooks?
Or are the criminals just a lot dumber in the USA which is why so many
get caught and end up in jail? Does Maddoff come to mind here?
<smile
Or is it because the Laws are tougher, and the spending by Governments
on law enforcements is as high as the spend on the military industry
compared to the rest of the world?
Maybe it's because there's so many Southern Baptists in the USA vs
anywhere else?
Then again, it could be all the Irish, Italian, Sicilian, and Hispanic
Catholics in society?
Maybe it's because Americans rarely get exposed to Islam until, like
Malcolm X after they end up in jail?
Or because Judges get kick-backs from private prison operators to send
more people to jail?
Or the "3 strikes and you're out" Laws?
Or maybe too many Texans have been POTUS?
Could be too many barely clad or knicker-less self-confident women on
the streets and in nightclubs and all over the TV screens?
Could be that there just too much fast food restaurants and the whole
population is spun out on sugar and food additives!!!
Or it could be just because there are som many Americans in America,
and that's why the following Stats are what they are?
Sheesh, who knows, but I bet I could build a website that would
convince a lot of biased media massaged people that any of the above
options were true and obviously so. ;-)
All depends on how ya look at it I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The World Prison Population List gives details of the number of
prisoners held in 205 independent
countries and dependent territories. It shows the differences in the
level of imprisonment across the
world and makes possible an estimate of the world prison population
total.
Key points
l Over 9 million people are held in penal institutions throughout the
world, mostly as pre - t r i a l
detainees (remand prisoners) or having been convicted and sentenced.
About half of these are
in the United States (2.03m), Russia (0.86m) or China (1.51m plus pre-
trial detainees and
prisoners in ‘administrative detention’).
l The United States has the highest prison population rate in the
world, some 701 per 100,000
of the national population, [ the year before it was 686 in the USA ]
followed by Russia (606), Belarus (554), Kazakhstan and the U.S.
Vi rgin Islands (both 522), the Cayman Islands (501), Turkmenistan
(489), Belize (459),
B e rmuda (447), Suriname (437), Dominica (420) and Ukraine (415).
[ That's some company you keep! <smile
l H o w e v e r, more than three fifths of countries (60.5%) have
rates below 150 per 100,000. (The
United Kingdom’s rate of 141 per 100,000 of the national population
places it above the midpoint
in the World List; it is the highest among countries of the European
Union.)
l Prison population rates vary considerably between diff e rent
regions of the world, and between
d i ff e rent parts of the same continent. For example:
o in Africa the median rate for western and central African countries
is 48 whereas for
s o u t h e rn African countries it is 327;
o in the Americas the median rate for south American countries is 126
whereas for
Caribbean countries it is 297;
o in Asia the median rate for south central Asian countries (mainly
the Indian sub-continent)
is 59 whereas for (ex-Soviet) central Asian countries it is 390;
o in Europe the median rate for southern European countries is 76.5
whereas for central and
e a s t e rn European countries it is 200;
o in Oceania (including Australia and New Zealand) the median rate is
111.5.
[ such nice good law abiding citizens us Aussies are, and not a gun in
sight hardly, except when roo or crocodile shootin' LOL ]
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf
Cheers ......... [ nice name for a bar that - as is Hooters Downtown
Riyadh !!! ]
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Anonymous Wrote:
On May 1, 2:58 pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
I wonder how many non-citizens and illegal aliens are in US prisons?
vs how many non-citizens and illegal aliens are in prisons of other
countries?
GAO - United States Government Accountability Office:
http://tinyurl.com/dgqzjr
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 07:55:33 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
You tell me .... 2,000,000 or close total in the usa .. what % of that
are not US citizens or resident aliens .. HUH?
don't be coy, spit it out mate whilst you IGNORE everything
else. ;-)))
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:18:26 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Simple math. 37% according to the GAO figures.
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:35:59 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 1, 11:50 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks ......... speaks
for itself.
The False Dichotomy fallacy, also called the Bifurcation or "black and
white" fallacy, is an informal logical fallacy where an individual
presents an argument having only few competing alternatives, but in
reality there are many more.
The fallacy in its general form looks like this:
P or Q
Not P
Therefore Q
False dichotomy is not a valid form of induction.
In other words, never let the facts get in the way of a good STORY
when one has a bias to promote and market to the world.
QUOTE
"We are all humans, we all share the same aspirations, we all have the
same pains, we all have the same problems and I think if we all don't
co-operate we're all gonna all to sink."
Prince Saud bin Abdul Mohsen - Governor of Hail, Saudi Arabia
- one of the leaders of a tribal conservative society in transition.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
this is what is called "UN-BIASED" information - not all facts and
figures may be complete nor 100% accurate
RECENT WORLD WIDE CIVIL WARS & ETHNIC CONFLICTS -
OR play new board game sweeping the world "be first to pick out the
Muslims and blame them more than every other human on the planet"
A Jewish pro-Israel website compiled statistics to rank conflicts
since 1950 by the number of human deaths incurred.
http://www.likud.nl/press454.html
Then there is this other example of compiled data about conflicts
including Civil Wars
http://www.historyguy.com/new_and_recent_conflicts.html
Al-Aqsa Intifada (Israeli-Palestinian Conflict) (high-risk to become a
regional war)--
Algerian Civil War—(1992-Present):
Basque Separatist Conflict—(1958-Present):
Burma (Myanmar) Civil War—(1948-Present):
Burundi Civil War—(1994-Present):
Colombian Civil War—(1964-Present):
Congo: Second Congolese War (This IS a regional war)
Chechnya (Russia): Second Chechen War--
Gaza War (2008-2009)--Renewal of the Israeli-Hamas Conflict
No-Fly Zone War (Iraq-Coalition Conflict ( 1992-2003)
Israeli Airstrikes on Syrian Forces in Lebanon—Part of ongoing
conflict between Israel and Syria in Lebanon. (high-risk to become a
regional war)—2001
Israeli –Syrian Border Clashes—Part of ongoing conflict between Israel
and Syria in Lebanon. (high-risk to become a regional war)— 2003
Ivory Coast (Cote d’Ivorie) Civil War—(Sept. 19, 2002-Present):
Kashmir Conflict (high-risk to become a regional war)—(1991-Present):
Nepal Civil War—(Feb. 13, 1996- Present):
Nepal Civil War—(Feb. 13, 1996- Present):
Muslim Rebellion in the Southern Philippines--(1969-Present):
New People’s Army Rebellion--(1969-Present): The Communist New
People’s Army in Phillippines
Rwandan Civil War—(1994-Present):
Sri Lankan Civil War—(1983-Present):
Sudanese Civil War—(1983-Present):
War on Terrorism—Officially beginning Oct. 7, 2001,
Ugandan Civil War--
Bougainville War of Independence—(1989-Present):
Cabinda (Angola) Separatist War—(1984-Present):
Chad-Central African Republic Border Conflict—(Aug. 7, 2002):
Chittagong Hill Tracts War in Bangladesh- (1975?-Present):
Hmong Insurgency in Laos—(1975-Present):
Hindu-Muslim Sectarian Violence—(1947-Present): INDIA
West Papua Rebellion—(1965-Present):
Iranian Mujahadeen Khalq Guerrilla War—(1979-Present): After the
Iranian Revolution in 1979 toppled the government of the Shah, the
Mujahadeen Khalq soon began a bloody guerrilla war against the new
Islamic government.
Korean Border Battle at Sea—(June 28, 2002):
Kurdish Rebellion in Iraq—(1991-Present):
Kurdish Rebellion in Turkey—(1984-Present): Rebel groups of the
Kurdish ethnic group seek independence from Turkey, a NATO Nation
Namibia: Caprivi Uprising—(Aug. 2, 1999-Present):
Oromo Rebellion in Ethiopia—(1973-Present):
Russian Bombing of Pankisi Gorge in Georgia—(September, 2002):
Somali Civil War (state of anarchy)—(1991-Present):
Yemen Tribal Conflict—(Dec. 19, 2001):
Angolan Civil War—(1975-April 4, 2002):
Chiapas Uprising in Mexico (“Zapatista Uprising”)—(Jan. 1, 1994-
Present):
Cambodian Civil War--
East Timor War—(1975-1999)
Second Eritrea-Ethiopia War—(1998-2000):
Fiji Civil War-- ongoing under Military Dictatorship
Georgian Military Revolt--
Guinea-Bissau Civil War and Intervention—(1998-1999):
Israeli Occupation of Southern Lebanon –(1982-2000):
Kosovo War—(1998-1999):
Madagascar Civil War—( June, 2002-July 7, 2002):
Peruvian Civil War—(1980-2000):
Saudi-Yemen Border Conflict—(1998):
Sierra Leone Civil War—(March, 1991-2002):
Tajikistan Civil War—(1992-1997):
Yemeni Tribal Uprising—(1998):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------
The American Civil War was the deadliest war in American history,
causing 620000 soldier deaths, and an undetermined number of civilian
casualties --- all the perpetrators 99% were Christians, zero were
Muslims.
----------------------------------
1936-07-17 - Military uprising under Gen Franco/begins Spanish civil
war
1938-05-25 - Spanish Civil War: The bombing of Alicante takes place,
with 313 deaths.
1939-03-28 - Spanish Civil War ends, Madrid falls to Francisco Franco
Available information suggests that there were about 500000 deaths
from all causes during the Spanish Civil War and the clear majority of
the perpetrators were Christians and Atheists, whilst zero were
Muslims.
-----------------------------------------------------
GREECE
1770-05-26 - The Orlov Revolt, a first attempt to revolt against the
Turks before the Greek War of Independence ends in disaster for the
Greeks.
1821-03-21 - First revolutionary act in Monastery of Agia Lavra,
Kalavryta, Greek War of Independence.
1821-03-23 - Battle and fall of city of Kalamata, Greek War of
Independence.
1821-05-08 - Greek War of Independence: The Greeks defeat the Turks in
Gravia.
1821-05-12 - The first big battle of the Greek War of Independence
against the Turks occurs in Valtetsi.
1822-01-14 - Greek War of Independence: Acrocorinth is captured by
Theodoros Kolokotronis and Demetrius Ypsilanti.
1822-01-15 - Greek War of Independence: Demetrius Ypsilanti is elected
president of the legislative assembly.
1822-05-16 - Greek War of Independence: The Turks capture the Greek
town of Souli.
1824-06-21 - Greek War of Independence: Egyptian forces capture Psara
in the Aegean Sea.
1834-04-03 - The generals in the Greek War of Independence stand trial
for treason.
BOSNIA & EAST TIMOR Civil Wars
East Timor and Bosnia are two countries with parallel tragedies. Both
were attacked by vastly more powerful neighbours as they tried to
establish themselves as independent states. In each case, the
aggression involved genocide against the country’s population; in each
case, the aggression and genocide were aided and abetted by the
Western powers; in each case, however, the aggressor was ultimately
defeated. The death toll of the East Timorese and Bosnian genocides
has in each case commonly been put at 200,000.
In the last two years, scientific studies of both East Timorese and
Bosnian war-losses have appeared, enabling us to begin to quantify
them more accurately. In January 2006, the Commission for Reception,
Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor (CAVR) published the results of
its investigation into East Timorese human losses in the period
1974-99. In June 2007, the Research and Documentation Centre in
Sarajevo (RDC) published the results of its investigation into Bosnian
human losses in the period 1991-95.
The two sets of figures are not completely comparable, as the figures
for East Timor represent scientific estimates with a small margin of
error so far as direct war-deaths are concerned, while the figures for
Bosnia represent a body count, therefore something close to an
absolute minimum. Furthermore, the figures for East Timor include a
much less precise estimate for deaths from war-related hunger and
disease, while the figures for Bosnia do not cover such deaths at all;
conversely, the figures for Bosnia include military deaths while the
figures for East Timor do not. Finally, neither the sizes of the East
Timorese and Bosnian populations nor the lengths of the two conflicts
were equivalent; the deaths in East Timor occurred among a much
smaller population over a much longer period of time.
With these provisos in mind, what do the results tell us ?
1) In East Timor, approximately 18,600 civilians were killed or
disappeared between 1974 and 1999 (with an error margin of +/- 1,000).
In Bosnia, at least 39,684 civilians were killed or disappeared
between 1991 and 1995.
2) In East Timor, just over 70% of killed civilians (approximately
13,094 people) were killed by the Indonesians or by their East
Timorese auxiliaries, while 29.6% (approximately 5,506 people) were
killed by the East Timorese resistance.
In Bosnia, at least 86% of killed civilians (34,128 people) were
killed by Serb forces, while not more than 14% (5,556 people) were
killed by Croat and Bosnian/Muslim forces combined.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------
VIETNAM CIVIL WAR pre-1964
French Indochina War
At the end of World War II, the Southeast Asian land of Vietnam was a
French colony, part of their Indochina Union that included Vietnam,
Cambodia, and Laos. French rule was consolidated by 1883, conducted
for the benefit of France with little regard for the local
inhabitants. In this environment, nationalistic movements were a
regular occurrence, including one in the 1920s led by a man who would
later take the name Ho Chi Minh.
The French Indochina War, sometimes called the First Indochina War,
lasted for nine years. The French Army carried out conventional war
with conventional armaments against the Vietminh guerrilla. In many
ways this period from 1946 to 1954 was a rehearsal for the American
Vietnam War of the 1960s and 1970s, with the U.S. taking the role of
the French, and repeating their errors, while Ho Chi Minh and his
military commander Vo Nguyen Giap, played the same roles in both wars
and were successful both times.
A French offensive around Hoa Binh in 1951 ended with French
withdrawal, after losses of about 900 French and ten times the number
of Vietminh. Giap counterattacked French garrisons and drew them into
repeated attempts to seize control of the war, all of which failed
with high French casualties. In April 1953, the Vietminh upped the
ante by invading Laos, further increasing the burdens on the French
attempts to defend the region. The French countermoves attempted to
draw the Vietminh into conventional battles at strong points,
culminating at Dien Bien Phu, a long valley near the Laotian border.
Giap destroyed the French at Dien Bien Phu by moving artillery into
the surrounding hills, a position the French had discounted as
impossible. While the French held out in a battle of attrition until
May 1954, they lost over 7,000 soldiers there and had 11,000 taken
prisoner, most of those never repatriated.
By then French political will was gone and the war was lost. To
formalize the facts on the ground, the Geneva Accords were signed on
20 July 1954, dividing Vietnam into north and south at the 17th
parallel and establishing a 6 mile wide DMZ. Ho Chi Minh's Communist
government controlled the north, while a U.S. sponsored Bao Dai
government ruled in the south. The Geneva Accords called for free
elections by July 1956 to determine a democratically elected
government for a reunited country of Vietnam.
During the nine years of the First Indochina War, the French and their
local allies counted 94,000 dead or missing while the north Vietnamese
claimed 150,000 dead.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------
VIETNAM CIVIL WAR post 1964
1964-12-05 - Vietnam War: For his heroism in battle earlier in the
year, Captain Roger Donlon is awarded the first Medal of Honor of the
war.
1965-03-30 - Vietnam War: A car bomb explodes in front of the U.S.
Embassy in Saigon, killing 22 and wounding 183 others.
1965-06-10 - Vietnam War: The Battle of Dong Xoai begins.
1966-01-10 - Julian Bond denied seat in Ga legislature for opposing
Vietnam War
1966-03-27 - Anit Vietnam war demonstrations in US, Europe & Australia
1966-06-29 - In the Vietnam War, US planes bombed Hanoi & Haiphong for
1st time
1967-02-23 - US troops begin largest offensive of Vietnam War
1967-04-14 - In the Vietnam War, US planes bombed Haiphong for 1st
time
1967-04-20 - US planes bomb Haiphong for 1st time during Vietnam War
1967-04-24 - Vietnam War: American General William Westmoreland says
in a news conference that the enemy had "gained support in the United
States that gives him hope that he can win politically that which he
cannot win militarily."
1967-10-21 - Thousands opposing Vietnam War try to storm Pentagon
1967-11-03 - Vietnam War: The Battle of Dak To begins.
1967-11-21 - Vietnam War: American General William Westmoreland tells
news reporters: "I am absolutely certain that whereas in 1965 the
enemy was winning, today he is certainly losing."
1967-12-05 - Benjamin Spock & Allen Ginsberg arrested protesting
Vietnam war
1968-01-21 - Vietnam War: Battle of Khe Sanh - One of the most
publicized and controversial battles of the war begins.
1968-02-05 - Vietnam War: Battle of Khe Sanh begins.
1968-02-18 - 10,000 demonstrators against US in Vietnam War in West-
Berlin
1968-03-16 - My Lai massacre occurs (Vietnam War); 450 die
1969-03-20 - US president Nixon proclaims he will end Vietnam war in
1970
1969-04-03 - Vietnam War: U.S. Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird
announces that the United States will start to "Vietnamize" the war
effort.
1969-04-05 - Vietnam War: Massive antiwar demonstrations occur in many
U.S. cities.
1969-11-15 - 250,000 peacefully demonstrate in Wash DC against Vietnam
War
1969-11-25 - John Lennon returns OBE to protest UK's support for
Vietnam War
1970-05-09 - 100,000s demonstrate against Vietnam War
1971-04-25 - About 200,000 anti-Vietnam War protesters march on
Washington
1973-01-23 - Pres Nixon announces an accord has been reached to end
Vietnam War
1973-02-05 - Funeral for LC William Nolde, last US soldier killed in
Vietnam War
1974-02-05 - John Murtha becomes the first Vietnam War veteran elected
to the Congress of the United States.
1974-09-16 - Pres Ford announces conditional amnesty for US, Vietnam
War deserters
1975-04-02 - Vietnam War: Thousands of civilian refugees flee from the
Quang Ngai Province in front of advancing North Vietnamese troops.
1975-04-29 - Vietnam War: Operation Frequent Wind: The U.S. begins to
evacuate US citizens from Saigon prior to an expected North Vietnamese
takeover. U.S. involvement in the war comes to an end.
1976-07-20 - Vietnam War: The US military completes its troop
withdrawal from Thailand.
1977-01-21 - Pres Jimmy Carter pardons almost all Vietnam War draft
evaders
1977-01-27 - Pres Carter pardons most Vietnam War draft evaders
(10,000)
1981-06-06 - Maya Yang Lin wins competition to design the Vietnam War
Memorial
1982-11-13 - Vietnam War Memorial dedicated in Washington DC
2000-11-16 - Bill Clinton becomes the first U.S. President to visit
Vietnam since the end of the Vietnam War.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
"shit happens"
Cheers Sean
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 1, 10:56 pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
I wonder how much is cultural bias. Jews hating
Muslims and Muslims hating Jews?
But there are Whites that hate Blacks and Blacks
that hate Whites. Etc., Etc.
Even Republicans hating Democrats and Dems
hating thems.
I think it's fair to be critical, but not to the point of
pot calling the kettle black. If Jews want to paint the
enemy as Muslim, they shouldn't wine when karma
comes home to roost. IMO.
Just like the Whites should not wine and neither
the Republicans :) :) :)
Etznab
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 15:26:10 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 3, 3:38 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
<smilecalled the group consciousness of shared beliefs.
Most Republicans sure do have a bleeding nose and aren't happy
campers .. if one can believe the media reports that is.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mean-men-ammo-and-guns-galore-20090501-aq5p.html
Filibuster proof senate is a scary thought! Where is that new senator
form Minnesota?? ... those Minnesotans sure are troublesome
folks!!! :-))
that wine word is spealt *whine* btw hehehe
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 17:58:44 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 2, 5:26 pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
Sean,
Yeah, you're right about that one. Same sound,
different spelling. Another version is pine, I think.
Maybe a distant cousin of pain.
Etznab
Etznab
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On Sat, 02 May 2009 16:19:53 -0700, JS <...@127.0.0.1
On 5/2/09 03:26 pm, in article
2d33...@n7g2000prc.googlegroups.com, "Santim
Vah" <...@gmail.com
That spealt word is spelt or spelled *spelt* or *spelled* btw hehehe^2
Not to wine, but had you had maybe a little too much whine when you wrote
that?
--JS
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 18:38:11 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 3, 9:19 am, JS <...@127.0.0.1
LOL -- I checked 3 times before I gave up!!
And wasn't because of the wine :-)
When I did "spelt" via google it kept showing it as the grain, and i
got all confused -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelt
and then I saw websites appearing with "spealt" and and ...........
What can a poor boy do?
But it is funny isn't it ... and sooooooooooo expected ! <smile>
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 18:30:08 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 3, 8:26 am, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
RE http://www.smh.com.au/world/mean-men-ammo-and-guns-galore-20090501-aq5p.html?pa ge=-1
In the print version of that newspaper they also included the
following stats that aren't on the webpage from the Brady Centre
fyi ::
Each day 84 people die in the US from gun violence, 34 of them
outright Murders - in a population of 300 million
As of 2004 there were 283 million privately owned firearms in the US -
40% handguns
The presence of a gun in the home Triples the risk of homicide in the
home
In 2007 in Australia the murder rate was 1.3 per 100K
The US murder rate was 5.6 per 100K
Whose Culture is more violent???
A good question , let's have a look at that.
From Rich's link http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
I have extrapolated some of the numbers - specifically the * List of
Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 2 Months *
Please allow me to "Put the Numbers in Perspective" here, as opposed
to how this anti-Muslim website Bias does it.
And consider who is "really" biased, who is cherry picking, spinning
the data, and who is the better Propaganda artist.
Murder rate in Saudi Arabia is about 0.92, in Malayasia 2.36. in
Indonesia the worlds largest Muslim nation it's 1.05, in the UAE 0.63,
in Turkey 3.83, in IRAN it's 2.93, and in "lawless" Palestine it's
4.04 - but still less than in the bastion of Freedom and Civilized
Society the USA.
I did a tally up of the data as presented - it showed a total of 1397
deaths in the last 2 months [ 59 days ] attributed to radical
"islamic" violence
[ BTW this TOTALLY ignores direct causes such as an existing state of
civil war or anything like that, and only bothers to assume that any
degree of civil war/conflict in anyones's nation irrespective of
religion would generate a similar level of such violence - eg Chile,
Columbia, Mexico, El Salvador, Burma, Cambodia, Haiti, Solomon
Islands, East Timor and on and on in Christian & Buddhist nations as
discussed in a previous post I sent. ]
That 1397 deaths equals 23.7 deaths per day average, vs the 84 a day
in the USA from Gun violence.
Even if one was to drop in a 9/11 style 3000 deaths during that TWO
[2] Month period, it still only equals 74.5 deaths per day average -
less than the USA from Guns alone!
Not only that, but these deaths being recorded and presented as some
kind of "crisis" and a threat to "civilization as we know it" are
spread over many countries and cultures, not just ONE.
Here's the list, and note whether they are a so-called stable nation
under the rule of law like the USA or Australia, or a nation in the
middle of a civil war, or a failed state, or a MAJOR War zone with
foreign troops inside it's borders.
THE LIST of 1397 deaths from "islamic terror" covers:
Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Thailand, Somalia, Philippines, India,
Chechnya, Russia, UK, Ingushetia, PA Gaza, Jordan, Iran, Algeria,
Sudan, Lebanon, Bahrain, Yemen, and Israel.
And Israel, for all the HYPE about their situation was only 3 deaths,
where one looked like just a crazed murder upon children which happens
all over the world at any time. People do go insane you know folks.
OK .... so look at all those countries, and why would anyone be
surprised IFa murder or assault or an attack was carried out in a
Muslim nation, that the perpetrator is HIGHLY likely to be a Muslim
--- DOH !!!
Also, look at those nations and tally up the populations ..... a quick
look tells me it's about 1900 million people!!
So 1397 deaths over 2 months equates to 23.7 per day, which when
annualized equals --- WAIT FOR IT .......
0.44 Deaths Per 100,000 [per K] ----------- OMG what a crisis and
danger this is !!!
Add in a 9/11 death toll for the year [ even every year ] and it jumps
to a whopping 0.60 Deaths per 100K
[ feel free to check the math ]
And this compares to 84 deaths a day thru Gun Violence alone in the
USA, and 34 a day of them are intentional murders!
And the US gun violence deaths, and the murder rate of 5.6 per 100K
EXCLUDES the deaths by it's Gun Violence and EXCLUDES ALL the
collateral civilian deaths perpetrated in Iraq and elsewhere sometimes
that too is a *daily occurrence too*.
But for some reason, some people prefer to believe that because
"islamic terror and violence" is so utterly permeating in the US media
and elsewhere, that somehow it is OBVIOUSLY far greater than anything
that might be happening in one's own back yard, and on one's own
behalf ... whilst all of that is being repeatedly deemed as
IRRELEVANT, and is not a FAIR indication of one's OWN CULTURAL
VIOLENCE despite Virginia Tech and Columbine High and Abu-Graib, of
multiple deaths in US Custody and of Torture, and secret prisons, and
failed criminal justice practices, and Capital Punishment, and the
like making it to the daily news bulletins but occasionally.
So, who is more violent?
-- who is more peaceful?
-- who can see the "obvious" more clearly?
-- who is less Biased, more open-minded and more fully informed than
the next guy?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm somethings just aren't as simple as simple people
would like them to be IMO.
Cheers Sean
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 22:54:19 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
I said the web site was biased. That doesn't mean the list was incorrect.
That would be a logical fallacy.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
What real evidence can you find that this list is wrong?
The issue was a list of terrorism, not murder.
How many deaths in the last two months can be attributed to radical
Christian terrorism? There's the difference. That's why I said it speaks for
itself. There's no comparions of terrorist acts by any other radical
religion. Probably all of them together don't amount to that. And, it's not
just two months, it's several years in a row and it's getting worse.
That's a different subject.
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#digression
The issue was killings committed by terrorism, not by guns.
` o
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 07:02:15 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 3, 3:54 am, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
"Ashaninka and Yines Indians are blocking an airport
in the central Peruvian jungle town of Atalaya as well
as two stations on a northern oil pipeline to protest
laws that they say threaten their ancestral land and
resources. Edson Rosales, spokesman for an Indian
rights group in the Amazon, says 15,000 Indians have
been protesting since April 9 and plan to start taking
over oil and gas rigs. He says laws passed in Dec-
ember open the door to privatization of water resources
and jungle land used by the Indians."
[Based on: News Services article (Indians in Peru
stage protests), p. A19, S.L.P.D., 05/02/09]
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:16:14 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 4, 12:02 am, Etznab <...@aol.com
Maybe highlighting this will help, I don;t know ...
Rich you said : "There's no comparions of terrorist acts by any other
radical religion."
This is where the narrow perspective is in error, where the cherry
picking is in error, and where the propaganda is in error.
The acts of terror that you and jasmyn, and those websites are
focusing on were not "acts by a religion".
They were acts by PEOPLE ---- what their religion is, is primarily
IRRELEVANT --- the religion is NOT a defined GROUP of people ... they
are 1.3 billion strong with tens of thousands of different sub-groups,
and cultures, and languages, and customs, and BELIEFS.
If it was a *religion* thing, then Saudi Arabia & Indonesia for
example would be at war with the west -- they aren't, and they are
going to be anytime soon !!!!!
Iran has never ever attacked anyone, before or after 1979. But Iraq
sure did when supported by the USA to hilt !!!
cheers sean
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:08:38 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
OK, let's be clear. You been responding on several different subjects, none
of which addressed what I mentioned. A single sentence about a list of
Islamic Terror Attacks. Use "Radical Islamists" and then we'll be talking
about the same thing.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:06:13 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 3, 6:54 pm, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Then my dear friend , you have not actually LOOKED at that list very
closely at all, nor the website parameters for creating the list, nor
what they "claim" the list represents .... have a GOOD look :-) Go to
the source perhaps?
Besides, you're not really listening to what I have said, or are
unable to grasp the pov. which is fine, I do not deny there are
terorist acts, nor that muslims do in fact carry them out. if that
helps, not sure it will. but cheers Sean
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 08:15:17 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
I'm not necessarily disagreeeing with what you have written. But OK, avoid
the list, make other points about Islam, equivocate, and justify it as you
will.
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:11:26 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Straw man.
I had no story or promotion. I wasn't arguing anything. I merely said the
site was biased. You disagree?
Then said the list of attacks speaks for itself. That's my opinion. Every
day for hundreds, or maybe more than a thousand days really surprised me.
Terrorism is a different issue than civil wars. Civil wars is a
non-sequitur.
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Anonymous Wrote:
Rich,
The list does seem like something that should speak for itself, but
I'm not sure it does.
If you picked the "Christian" world, you could probably also find a
long list of murders, attacks, and horrible acts.
I'm not sure these are reflections of religious issues, or just the
nature of cultural problems that always exist in the world. The list
is written up to sound as if they are religious atrocities, but you
can find murders and horrible acts every day in US newspapers and
could write them up as if there was a religious underpinning to most
of them if you wanted to.
I think we are more likely to believe this about Islam because we know
so little about it. We form our most black and white opinions about
the things we know the least.
So, I'm not sure it really does speak for itself.
For example, when the web page said enough is enough and these acts
should end: Who are they talking to? Do they really think that by
saying something like this, that it can just end? If it is that
simple, why don't they just tell the Christian world to stop crime and
hatred? Hasn't crime and hatred gone on long enough? Why don't the
Christian leaders just put an end to it?
Just trying to offer another way of looking at it.
Doug.
On Apr 30, 11:11 pm, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 22:28:56 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 3, 7:51 pm, Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
A very good point, I believe.
Etznab
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 19:02:18 -1000, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Hi Doug,
What I first wrote originally was "What I read(mostly the first link) on
this site was interesting but seemed
clearly biased". Maybe you didn't see that because it got edited out? So,
yes, I agree and that's why I didn't bother reading the rest. Nor did I read
their opinions about the list. Of course it's not a black and white issue.
In that light I don't dismiss everything that web site may have said either,
which is why I said it was "interesting".
I did spot the list though, and even if padded with questionable incidents,
and they were removed, it still seems it would be an extreme amount and
regularity. Even if only half were true terrorists, wouldn't you think it
indicates an extreme amount and consistancy? Clearly it's not about
Islamists in general. It's the fanatics defined as terrorists. I wasn't
addressing crime, horrible acts, guns, the Saudi Royals, ect, which are
different issues. I think it was about Jihadist/Terrorists, killing in the
name of Mohammad, the Koran, Sharia law, or Allah. If we where to talk about
religions, which I wasn't, I really don't believe that in the last several
years there are nearly as many fanatics belonging to any other religion that
would come close to killing so many on a day by day basis. So in that sense,
sans all other issues, I do think it speaks for itself.
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 23:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Etznab <...@aol.com
On May 4, 12:02 am, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
Rich,
Have you ever stopped to think how the U.S. helped
to pit Shiites against Sunnis & Sunnis against Shiites
to its (the U.S.A.'s) advantage? Even before the War
in Iraq?
Like, did you ever ask yourself how many weapons,
how much military technology the U.S. gave to Iran &
Iraq when it played both sides of the fence? Don't you
think there is karma involved there?
Now the Middle East and Iraq have been invaded &
occupied by a foreign military force. The U.S.A. and
its allies. Iran is now practically surrounded by what
some have called the most powerful military on the
planet.
I ask myself. If the United States, if Europe, or if
Israel were invaded by a foreign military force - and
the most powerful in the world - or if watched such
a force surrounding it over time, do you imagine it
would cause people to fight the invader or prepare
a defense against attack?
Russia was in Afghanistan once. And don't you
think The U.S. took sides and supported the other
side of the conflict with weapons and intelligence?
So what is so different now? Except that maybe
the two teams changed sides - like they do on a
football field after the end of each quarter.
I see karma happening in these conflicts. And
I see the invasion, the occupation and the torture
of Arab lands and Muslim peoples breeding more
and more Jihadists. I see so-called superpowers
using other countries & other cultures as pawns
against oneanother, while the superpowers move
in behind and establish their pieces on the board.
This is what I see. But peoples lives are not a
game of chess and soldiers are not expendable
ignorant pawns. That is my opinion, because it's
not a one-sided battle the way I see it. It is not
"good against evil" and "us against them" where
one side is white and the other side black.
Until both sides look at their actions and the
causes set in motion, nobody is going to see
how the board got the way it did (after so much
time has gone by). They might see one side
attacking on one day and the same side an-
other day defending. IMO, I can't actually judge
things - as if to say that because one side lost
it's two castles that side is justified moving its
pieces off the playing board and onto someone
else's board in a mad dash to attack for the
sake of revenge. Even to the point of making
enemies for the sake of additional conquest.
It not only takes attention away from the original
cause and effect relationship between two opp-
onents, but it starts a whole new round of cause
and effect with other parties.
Have you played the game of RISK? it gets
harder when someone tries to take over and
control the whole world. Not only that, but the
ones who do often end up losing much of what
they thought they gained.
I'm thinking maybe there is no such thing as
a war game, where one side wins over another.
That maybe the object of the game is for both
sides to learn the laws of karma. That what is
sown is what is reaped.
The U.S. is reaping economic decline and a
sinking moral standing in the world. What did
it sow (as one nation) to get that way? Can it
all be blamed on "Terror"? or some "Boogey-
Man" Terrorists"? Is the answer to start a war
against "Terror"? Is the answer to pich a fight
with a religion (Islam?) who's members make
up nearly a sixth of the world's population?
(I heard one in ten people were Muslim. And
that was probaly over ten years ago. I also
heard the most popular name in the whole
world - the most people who had that name -
was "Muhammad". I heard that last week -
from a Christian!) I did not know that.
Etznab
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On Mon, 4 May 2009 08:25:20 -0700 (PDT), Santim Vah <...@gmail.com
On May 1, 4:11 pm, "Rich" <...@inorbit.com
It isn;t a straw man Rich ..bnecause IF the issue was 'terrorism acts'
per say, then all the civil war related stuff wouldn't be on the
website ... and you'd also see Tamil Tiger and Basque attacks
there .... and you should actually see suicide shootings in US schools
there too .. .
But the website is NOT about terrorism, it is about Muslims involved
in violent acts .. be they really terrorism or not. Civil war and
murder are all violent, and are all "terrorising" of others.
If the issue was indeed that the "cause" is the religion then you'd
see 1.3 BILLION people planting roadside bombs ... trouble is you ONLY
see that where there is a civil war going on or foriegn troops on
someone elses soil ... that IMO is normal.
That's why it isn;t a "strawman" ... the website you referenced is the
strawman, not me . I am challenging what that site 'represents' ,
you're personal pov about what you might see is besides the point to
me because I don't see what you're are surprised about as being
surprising at all, but to be expected given what is and what came
before.
Anyone who believes that Northern Ireland's conflicts and murders and
bombings was driven by *religious differences* or that their religion
made them do the acts they did, between the protestants and catholics
would be very wrong in that belief. IMO. I don't see much difference
between that and any other conflict no matter which one it is, or who
is involved. People are people. They respond accordingly. One's
religion is only "part" of that make up, and no one lives in a
vacume.
No, I was tlaking about the "story" all those websites are promoting,
not you. I just think such things have been given so much air play and
given so many legs, that it is easy to get 'distracted' by their
apparent logical rationales.
*apparent* being the operative word there.
All 4 sites are extremely Biased, your one and all of the ones jasmyn
offered. None have anything to do with Islam imho, just as a pro-KKK
site has oh so little to do with what America is [ or used to be ]
about.
I don;t see it as a non-sequitur because there has never been a civil
war where one side or both havn't been accused of terrorism,
atrocities and the killling of innocent civilians.
Even the Partisans in greece, france etc during nazi occupation were
guilty of killing civilians and being labelled 'terrorists' and
'outlaws'. They acknowledged that killing collaborators without trial
was justified. If video of such things were shown on german tv in
1944, it would have been presented as vicious crazed communists
murdering innocents -- in 2009 it is vicious crazed muslims murdering
innocents and they do it because their evil religion tells them to do
it.
If this was *true* then I simple ask "So why isn't the #1 Sharia Law
nation in the world, with all the Holy Shrines - Saudi Arabia ... why
isn't that nation out there doing the same thing to all the infidels
around the war, and declaring Jihad against America?
So there MUST be more to what's happening than just the fact that they
are "muslims" -- a bit more digging is required, especially when the
Muslims are killing each other as well. That's my point. I can't
explain it any better Rich, or offer any more example references to
consider along side such "data" to see a bigger picture going on.
In the 1960's and 70's the murder capital of the world was Northern
island. Did you know that not all of it was sectarian violence? Some
folks who had a taste for murder used to go there for "holidays"
becasue the chance of getting caught were so low ... most murders were
simply put down to another unsolved "terrorist murder" -- I am NOT
saying that is what is going on in Iraq etc necessarily today, but it
does suggest that just accepting the surface appearances as "others
who are pushing a biased pov overall" is fraught with danger and error
especially where "assumptions" are involved due to a major lack of
related information and facts on the ground.
A list of "deaths" is not a "fact" ... it;s just numbers, and you know
numbers lie when used in a biased way.
You're welcome to disagree if you wish. :-)
cheers sean
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