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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:35:57 -0400, Alan Meyer <...@yahoo.com
I looked at that. It was written by Peter Fleckenstein.
There is another guy who went over Fleckenstein's points
one by one, comparing them to the actual pages and paragraphs
cited in Fleckenstein's article. Somebody posted a URL
for his refutation. See:
http://www.reasic.org/2009/08/debunking-health-care-misinformation/
The author claims that every single one of Fleckenstein's
criticisms of the legislation either misunderstands or
misrepresents it. Without exception!
It makes interesting reading.
Alan
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:22:47 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
But after opening with a blatant and readily disproved lie --
"At Blue Dog Rep. Mike Ross’ town hall, he was shouted down by a woman
insisting Obama supports a single-payer (government) insurance plan,
which is simply not true." --
how credible is Reasic's rebuttal?
Crap! Guess I'll have to actually read it and decide for myself.
I.P.
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:23:22 -0400, Alan Meyer <...@yahoo.com
You know folks, the government does a lot of things for us.
Consider these government programs:
The U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps
The Coast Guard
Fire departments
Public schools
Garbage pickup
Sewers
Public water services (remember the John Birch Society howl
over fluoridation?)
Mail
Police
Public libraries
The Food and Drug Administration
The National Cancer Institute
Roads and highways
Traffic lights, signs, regulation and police
National, state and municipal parks
Air traffic control
Hydroelectric dams
Broadcast spectrum allocation for radio and TV
Emergency aid for natural disasters
Flood control
Geological survey
The Farm Bureau
Occupational Health and Safety Administration
Insurance regulation
Building and construction regulation
Noise regulation
Weather satellites
Global positioning satellites
NASA
Air and water pollution monitoring and regulation
Social Security
Medicare
Should all of these be killed? Have they taken away our liberty?
Do they all amount to government control of our private lives?
Would we be better off without them?
I think the campaign against government supervision of health
care is hysterical in the full sense of the word, and it only
benefits the hugely rich fat cats of the insurance and
pharmaceutical industries - and their paid minions in the
Congress, the Senate, and the conservative media.
If the existing system worked, it should be left alone. But it
doesn't work. If it's working for you, you have my
congratulations. But for society as a whole all of the studies
have shown that we pay more for health care, vastly more for
health care bureaucracy (in the insurance industry and in the
form of accountants, clerks and claims people serving doctors),
have more rationing not less (because there are so many people
who cannot get health care here) and have worse indicators of
public health (longevity, infant mortality, preventable diseases)
than other advance countries.
Change is long overdue.
Alan
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:42:13 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Destruction is not.
I.P.
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:51:05 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.net
Hello IP,
How do you handle your Medical Insurance.
I need some pointers....
john
"I.P. Freely" <...@newsfe10.iad...
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 17:44:37 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Anyone’s first line of medical “insurance” is awareness. I may have
caught my PC at a much less threatening level if I had known even the
most basic PSA threshold, which my criminally stupid VA PCP certainly
didn’t. My first level of medical care is constantly reading
newsletters, magazines, and newspapers about health & medical issues
like most people read about sports or movie stars -- about which I read
zero. I never cease to be amazed when 99% of the people sitting in
transportation terminals, waiting rooms … ANYWHERE … staring at the
$!*@%~*! CEILING for whole minutes, let alone hours! What a waste of
the human mind. If just one of the thousands of articles I read prior to
putting myself in that VA idiot’s care had impressed *4.0* into my
brain, I may well be more likely to die of a heart attack 30 years from
now than of PC during the next decade.
Concurrent to reading, I make sure I have layers of insurance. In my
priority of expenses, it ranks just below food and shelter, above nice
homes and cars and children and everything else I can think of, simply
because medical care can easily cost much more than any of those.
Because my government lied when it promised me lifelong health care,
I’ve had to buy extra health insurance ever since I retired from the Air
Force. (The Pelosi/Obama proposal that soldiers would have to buy ALL
their own health insurance immediately after being patched up after
getting blown up in combat reveals legions about their mindset towards
all of us peons.)
I could go on for a dense page about the ways we saved tens of thousands
of dollars annually compared to our peers, but the bottom line was that
we now easily live year in and year out on our government pensions with
enough nest egg to back us up presuming our various insurances cover
what they should. We have three levels of general health insurance:
Medicare first, which we paid into for decades; then a government
health policy my wife’s career allowed her to buy for us after her
retirement; then TriCare for Life, my military retiree backup health
coverage which pays any bills the first two leave in their wake UNLESS
THE FIRST TWO EXCLUDE IT. If Medicare says I’m not worthy of a new hip
because I’m 70 and only finish 7th in a marathon, the other two pay zip,
but at least Medicare lets me buy supplemental health insurance; Obama
has often stated he wants to ban that freedom. IOW, my insurance will
suck if the present administration succeeds in pushing its agenda down
our throats, because they actually ADMIT it may look much like the
single-payer core of the UK or Canadian systems, which doom them to MUCH
higher mortality rates, months to years of treatment delays, exclusion
of first-tier FDA-approved meds just because they’re expensive,
rationing just because we’re senior citizens regardless of our fitness,
and, oh, yeah … outright BANKRUPTCY, just like Medicare is even *before*
it is forced to give away $500,000,000,000 to help defray the cost of
Obamacare. Why, that’s almost one more “0” than even Medicare *fraud*
costs every year now!
Oh, yeah … the VA. Besides signing my death warrant from PC, it has
funded a few expensive surgeries related to my military service (aka
“service-connected disabilities”). I say “funded”, because ain’t no VA
surgeon getting his hands inside my body. Fortunately, most major VA
hospitals work hand-in-hand with teaching university medical schools,
which provide state-of-the-art care. THOSE were my surgeons,
oncologists, neurologists, ENTs, radiologists, etc.. Of course, free VA
care cost us 20 years on active duty and is increasingly available only
for service-connected medical care, and even that is sometimes denied
despite regulations.
From that starting point and with those resources, when I suspect a
medical problem, I research it thoroughly enough to
1) know what the problem is as best as I can,
2) choose an appropriate level of provider (PA? PCP? Specialist?), and
3) recognize whether the resulting diagnosis and treatment seem credible.
Then I analyze any options they give me, just as I did when my initial
urologist welcomed me to this club and when other oncologists invited me
to Round 2 (ADT). Lesser issues warrant less research or none at all.
Stop. Realize that insurance, whether it’s an extended warranty on our
iPod or Blue Cross “Gold” for a Mormon family of 15, serves one
purpose: it caps our replacement/repair/health care costs to whatever
level a policy covers ... at extra cost designed to cover the insurance
company CEO’s villas, the guy who uses his iPod as a hammer, and the guy
who weighs 500 pounds, smokes, and mainlines both heroin and liquefied
Big Macs. I can afford to buy a new iPod, so I don’t insure it. A crown
every 10 years is cheaper than dental insurance, so I don’t buy dental
coverage. Now that our mortgage is paid off, we may not renew our life
insurance … unless my PC has returned by the time my term life insurance
runs its term.
My point is that people buy insurance to avoid bankruptcy or the loss of
something they must have and can’t afford, not to make money. (The only
people who make money on insurance are the insurance company and
policyholders who file an extraordinary amount of valid claims … not a
good thing where health insurance is concerned.)
Americans have countless health care and insurance options now, mostly
very expensive but unexcelled anywhere the world. Many other nations’
experiences prove that If O-care isn’t averted and more rational heads
don’t succeed in improving, rather than destroying, our flawed but still
far superior health care system, many of us in this forum will see live
to see significantly reduced care at a much higher cost.
One of those costs will be the definitive answer your opening question:
we won’t be *ALLOWED* to manage our own health care or insurance; the
DMV will do that for us, so to speak, while we stand in line to get our
license plates, staring at the ceiling rather than reading the Johns
Hopkins PC White Paper because our medical awareness will no longer do
us any good. Anyone who wants that level, style, and ice-cold
dispensation of health care can stop even trying to manage his health
care and insurance, stump for O-care, and hope the Congress betrays us.
However, anybody who thinks medical care or insurance is expensive now
will be SHOCKED to see how much more it costs -- in dollars and lives --
once it’s “free” and every person who so chooses uses and abuses it for
every hangnail … or ambulance rides to the mall.
I.P.
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:05:15 -0400, "Claude" <...@nospam.com
John, this is obviously not IP's answer, but the root of your problem in the
present system, I think, is your age. You are in the oldest age group below
Medicare that private insurers cover. Older people are more expensive for
insurance companies to cover because they, obviously, have more going wrong
with them and need more medical coverage. Right now, according to this
article, http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090806/us_time/08599191487600, the
private insurance companies want any health care reform to allow them to
charge rates for your age group at five times the rates for younger
people.(I don't know what factor they are presently using, but it's at least
as large as 5.) One of the health care plans presently being considered in
Congress will limit that factor to 2 times that of younger enrollees. The
insurance companies obviously are opposed to this.
What, then, is an answer to your problem?
1) Get older and join Medicare.
or
2) Have health care reform succeed with a reduction in that age factor.
"jloomis" <...@news6.newsguy.com...
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:10:33 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
I am myself on Medicare and belive me, you have to have an extra insurer
as well! We use BCBS of MA Bronze, for example.
So, even on Medicare you have to have a private plan!
"git'n old ain't no fun - it's just better than the alternative."
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 15:30:27 -0400, "Claude" <...@nospam.com
"RickMerrill" <...@news.eternal-september.org...
Same here. But the Medicare supplement is a lot cheaper than my private
health insurance used to be. And now, total coverage is much better.
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On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:29:42 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:10:33 -0400, RickMerrill
<...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
And if you could not afford the extra private plan what would happen?
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:23:55 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
THen you pay the remainder (bill - medicare cover =sometimes known as co-pay.
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:49:53 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
We'd be stuck with Medicare, which O plans to dun for $0.5T to fund
O-care. But if we chose to buy a plasma TV or have kids or smoke
cigarettes rather than health insurance, that's our choice and it ain't
the next guy's obligation to pick up our tab.
I.P.
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:37:25 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
The short and very incomplete answer is military health care; a more
useful, more accurate, more broadly applicable answer to this excellent
question will probably have to wait until I finish a trip I'm starting
tomorrow AM.
I.P.
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 12:08:03 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.net
I see, A government issued health care and well deserved.
Now if this works well for you and many other veterans, why not the average
american who pays for the services you receive?
Don't get me wrong, I was born at a army hospital and lived on the bases for
my youth. My Dad was a lifer, and died in a Veterans Hospital.
So, if it is good for you, why not the rest of us.?
john
"I.P. Freely" <...@newsfe22.iad...
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:34:37 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Good for me? It signed my death warrant by delaying my PC diagnosis for
three unnecessary years. My VA recovery ward experiences have been
medieval, sometimes outright dangerous, nightmares. I've been trying for
over a year to get tetanus and shingles vaccinations. I have to remind,
then harass, my VA PCP to get follow-up screening on my colon cancer; if
I didn't stay in their face it would never happen. The vaunted VA
computer records system has repeatedly lost my medical records; only the
personal copy I demand for every visit has enabled me to even retain vet
status, let alone medical care. The VA system still refuses
consideration for my daily falls due to service-connected vertigo
verified by a VA physician and personally supported in MY case by the
federal chief of the VA, an ENT.
Want another dozen items just from my own experience?
I consider the VA as my flu shot provider and, if I harass them
mercilessly with e-mails from VA/university specialists, arrangers of
local scans to be forwarded to real doctors. For anything more
complicated I use the various insurance policies I pay for.
I pity anyone dependent only on the VA for their health care, and as far
as I can tell, its problems are simply because it's government-run,
because its PEOPLE are mostly nice.
But if it's what you want, feel free to rewind your life and join the
Army for 20 years. It's your call.
I.P.
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:49:03 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
JP, what's your gleason number?
Sorry to hear it, but it is common and the system is overloaded.
I belive at your age you can get that under Medicare free from private
sources if that source "accepts" medicare.
The lost medical records is a scandal that the health bill aims to rectify.
I studied tai-chi for a year and it really helped many of us with falls.
> I.P.
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
8 ... and my VA PCP totally ignored my PSA as it rose through 4, 5, 6,
7, and 8 over three years. My formal complaint against his ignorance in
this and other long-known medical issues got nowhere.
That's what I did after the VA assured me for a year that they'd "get
right on that".
Yes. Last I heard its solution is the VA's computerized system.
Try it after the VA removes one inner ear after it began "trying to kill
me" with drop attacks.
I.P.
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 12:30:20 -0400, "Claude" <...@nospam.com
"Alan Meyer" <...@news.eternal-september.org...
Alan, the futility on this issue is that being reasonable, logical,
historically accurate, and insightful will do no good at all for those who
are brain-locked in ideology. But thank you anyway.
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:44:13 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
I've not seen any of that from the left. All I see is pity for the poor
and whining about the rich.
I.P.
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On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:27:33 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:44:13 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
Simple question...
Do you believe that in the USA anyone who is here regardless of their
legal status who is having major abdominal pain ought to be able to
get health care and treatment, including surgery if necessary,
regardless of their ability to pay (thru insurance or not)?
Or do you believe if they can't pay/don't have insurance they should
just be left on the street?
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:42:52 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Sure ... and they do.
I.P.
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:43:11 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
So IP endorses unlimited free care for anybody who shows up regardless
of their service record (or lack thereof).
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:28:07 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
I said nothing of the sort.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:15:04 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:42:52 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
OK. Would you also agree that for simpler things they are also
currently getting their flu treated thru the emergency room, just like
they get an appendectomy treated? I know that last time I was in the
emergency room in terrible pain from kidney stones I had to wait an
hour while they processed a family of 5 that appeared to be illegal's
and who seemed to have the flu.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:41:51 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: I know that last time I was in the
: emergency room in terrible pain from kidney stones I had to wait an
: hour while they processed a family of 5 that appeared to be illegal's
: and who seemed to have the flu.
Same thing happened to me at a local ER. I'm suffering from symptoms
resembling a heart attack. My doctor calls ahead to the ER and tells them
I'm coming. We get there and I fill out my card, "possible heart attack"
and put it in the basket. A lady who had come in after me and wrote "flu"
on her card. Twenty minutes later, she gets called back. I cannot assume
the propriety of her being in this country, but she was milking the system.
Prologue: I went up to the nurse and said, "ma'am, while you're taking care
of the flu patients should I call 9-1-1 for my heart attack?" She looked
through the cards as though shuffling a dealt hand and said, "Oh, my, Mr.
Kramer, we didn't see this." I looked around the inner office and asked,
"We?" After a couple of weeks of correspondence, the process was changed at
the ER, she was reprimanded, I was apologized to and after four days in the
hospital testing my heart, my PCP diagnosed me in a follow-up office visit
as having side effects due to a jelly-fish sting that I received in Hilton
Head ten days before. The flu patient drank plenty of liquids and
eventually got better.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:36:55 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
"currently getting"? I wouldn't know. But an ER which prioritizes flu
pts over kidney stone pts has its priorities screwed up. But as soon as
everyone gets "free" single payer care for everything, you'll wait
months to see a urologist next time your stones act up, as they do in
the UK and Canada now. When my kidneys began to hurt, I looked in the
Yellow Pages, picked a uro clinic, called the office, explained my mild
but nagging symptoms, and was in front of the clinic's chief urologist
the next day. They said I could have gotten in within hours if my pain
were bad.
And that was on Medicare; if I had REAL insurance -- the kind that
actually pays a doctor as much as a visit and lab work costs him -- I
may have gotten in sooner (and would be refused by fewer doctors).
I.P.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:17:41 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:36:55 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
That last paragraph is what always leaves me scratching my head. You
were on Medicare and seem pretty satisfied with the services you
received. All I see in the proposed health care bill is essentially
extending Medicare to everyone as a base level of insurance. If you
want more you can pay more, just as you can do now with Medicare.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 05:38:35 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Some, yes; some, no. I also had to pay thousands out of my own pocket to
fight my well-documented sleep apnea, which kills tens of thousands of
Americans annually.
Sorry; I do not believe that's their intent OR that it's feasible:
O and many other Dems have repeatedly stated their objective is SPUHC,
which is proven not to work.
O said just this week that UPS and FedEx work just great; it's the PO
that's screwed up. *DOH!*
UK. Canada.
I.P.
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:49:45 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.net
We need change.......
I am sick.....in the head with my insurance company Anthem Blue Cross.
My 23 year old son just was removed from the policy........His new plan by
himself would cost over 600 every 2 months....
Our policy for him, and myself and wife every 2 months is 2800.00
Now my billing today is 2600.00
Now if you think with me, and subtract his premium they charge him from our
new policy amount that would be 2200.00
These insurance companies are criminal and crooked.
The f$#(ck.....the payee......sorry for my language...
I am livid....they are going to squeeze us like lemons......until there is
none left...
Definition of a parasite.......
We need change....I know I have to pay for insurance but it needs to be down
to earth......
sick....Anthem Double Cross........crooks.
john
"Alan Meyer" <...@news.eternal-september.org...
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On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:05:53 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
And you think that a system with zero competition and more patients,
proven in almost every nation that has tried it to fail dismally, run by
the most incompetent bureaucracy in the nation, funded by tax and price
increases on almost every citizen and company (proven throughout the
history of the globe to crush an economy in recession), voted in by
politicians who never read its charter, is an IMPROVEMENT?
As the sign said 40 years ago: THIMK!
I.P.
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 18:28:26 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.net
Hi IP
What do you do for your medical costs?
I laid out my scenario.......Anthem Blue Cross.....
curious if I can get some pointers......
What would be a good solution to this problem?
john
"I.P. Freely" <...@newsfe20.iad...
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:41:19 -0600, He'sDeadJim <...@nienspamhotmail.com
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 18:28:26 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.netwrote:
I.P has no answers just knee jerk reaction talking points. His
viewpoint on this just doesn't hold water anymore. Hey his pals are
still coming out with you don't want a government bureaucrat coming
between you and your doctor. That ignores the fact now you have an
insurance bureaucrat deciding much of your healthcare and is always
between you and your doctor. Given a choice I'll take a civil service
one there over an insurance lackey any day. Not everything in
America must be done for profit. Healthcare is like a public utility
it's for the good of the commons. The insurance companies business is
to collect as much as it can from its customers while continuing to do
as much as they can to not pay out benefits. That's fine for Wal-Mart
merchandising but reprehensible when playing with people's health and
quality of life.
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:25:05 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
Stick with your rebuttals which I like and please skip the ad hominem.
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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:02:21 -0700, "jloomis" <...@ocean.net
IP is on Government Medical...VA He deserves it, and it is a Governmental
Agency......We deserve it too!
John
"RickMerrill" <...@news.eternal-september.org...
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On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:41:19 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
In neither sense does Joe Citizen deserve the VA system.
1) He didn't do anything bad enough to deserve such a dismal system.
2) He didn't put his life on the line for crappy pay and sometimes
incredible hours like our combat veterans did. You don't seem to
comprehend what an insult it is to our combat vets to claim everyone is
entitled to the same benefits they earned ... and paid cash for (Social
Security, Medicare, etc.)
I.P.
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:16:50 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
It will be more like the system that the senators and representatives
have for themselves. How much it will cost is not knowable!
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On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:27:06 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
How *much*, no. How *little*? Certainly tens of trillions, minimum.
That's who no one on earth expects any universal plan to resemble
Congressional health care in the slightest.
I.P.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:34:58 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:20:57 -0400, RickMerrill
<...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
Great link. Don't expect the anti's to bother reading any of it.
Anyone who has listened to the right wing hysteria and then compared
it to what the proposal actually says can only come to one conclusion,
and that is that the people who generated the lies could not have done
so out of some honest miss-understanding. One has to purposely look
for things in the proposal that can be twisted and then make up the
rest. The people posting the lies are traitors to this country. I am
not directing that at people like IP, who simply read the crap and
accept it because it supports the view they want to find support for.
It saddens me that the level of discourse in this country has fallen
so low that virtually anyone with a blog and some perseverance can
willfully spew the most pernicious nonsense and garbage and it will be
accepted unthinkingly by so many.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:41:49 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Your "great link" begins and is based on a proven lie. Quote:
"At Blue Dog Rep. Mike Ross’ town hall, he was shouted down by a woman
insisting Obama supports a single-payer (government) insurance plan,
which is simply not true."
You're thus stating that White House spokeswoman Linda Douglas -- and
her ultimate boss* -- are liars and traitors. You probably want to
rephrase that.
* For just one example, see
http://obamalies.net/public-option-lie-caught-on-video.html .
Sorry, 007, but my views come from my research, not vice versa, whether
the issue is politics, GW, cancer treatment, choosing a car, etc. Anyone
who labels the CBO, the Census Bureau, the I.G., the GAO, Rasmussen
polls, contextual videos of lips moving, audits of state-wide
Hillarycare implementations, appraisals of UK and Canadian health care
by their own governments, hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific and
medical studies, etc. as "crap" is up to his nostrils in ideological
obfuscation.
I agree. Some independent thinker actually cited the Daily Kos here a
couple of days ago.
I.P.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:26:19 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:41:49 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
I can't tell what you are talking about in the above so can't respond.
Yeah, I watched it. It's a typical hit piece where they take a bunch
of stuff out of context and string it together to make someone say
something they didn't say, or didn't say in the context it's being
presented. Combined with adding other peoples comments as if they are
speaking for OB when they are just expressing their own opinions.
That's what everyone thinks about their own opinions. What else is
new. I have yet to actually meet a real live Canadian or UKian who
dislikes their health care system. To the contrary, they seem to
think it's better then the chaotic system we have here where you can
be dropped when you loose your job, can be denied coverage when you
get a new job because of pre-existing conditions, etc. American's
tend to be rather myopic and think that ANYTHING from the US just HAS
to be better then anything from anywhere else with the exception of
cars. When it comes to cars it's just the reverse.
>I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:03:10 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Then do as I did: read the article. Its opening premise is
"At Blue Dog Rep. Mike Ross’ town hall, he was shouted down by a woman
insisting Obama supports a single-payer (government) insurance plan,
which is simply not true."
That makes either Ross or O a liar. Which is it?
Then White House health care spokesman Linda Douglas goes all over
network and cable TV with "O does not support SPUHC." Again, who's lying
on our tax dollar, O or Douglas?
What part of "I happen to be a proponent of SPUHC. That's what I want."
are you not willing to understand?
Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the Financial Services Committee, is
not just "a pol with an opinion"; he is an 800-pound gorilla even by
Capitol Hill standards. And your tax dollar paid Douglas to deny O said
what we saw his lips say repeatedly, in context and very clearly, to
multiple audiences.
I'm sorry, 007, but you're just not paying attention to the hard news,
relying instead on anecdotal myopia and Al Gore. What part of "The UK's
PC mortality rate is 604% of that in the U.S." and "17-week wait to see
a specialist" do you find encouraging?
I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:16:14 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:03:10 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
You only see what you want to see. I never said it was perfect. Is
the US system where you lose your job means you lose your insurance
and often become uninsurable a prize?? Sure there's cobra, if you can
afford it. The guy on min wage can't. Do you think that guy feels
really good that IF he happens to get PCa he would get better
treatment here except that since here he has no insurance what he gets
is NO treatment. It's just silly to focus on few isolated things
when trying to figure out how to improve the US system. As I said, I
have not run into any real live NORMAL people from Canada or the UK
who think what we have is OVERALL better. But if you want to stick to
the MFFY mentality, that's your choice.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:32:04 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: You only see what you want to see. I never said it was perfect. Is
: the US system where you lose your job means you lose your insurance
: and often become uninsurable a prize?? Sure there's cobra, if you can
: afford it. The guy on min wage can't. Do you think that guy feels
: really good that IF he happens to get PCa he would get better
: treatment here except that since here he has no insurance what he gets
: is NO treatment. It's just silly to focus on few isolated things
: when trying to figure out how to improve the US system. As I said, I
: have not run into any real live NORMAL people from Canada or the UK
: who think what we have is OVERALL better. But if you want to stick to
: the MFFY mentality, that's your choice.
Not debating here, nor commenting on the propriety; just deflating this
myth.
In the US, sometimes health insurance is a perquisite of employment; part of
the compensation package. Cobra is available for those who are laid off.
When Cobra isn't available or expires or a person hasn't otherwise earned a
wage package that includes it, the government and other programs, usually
faith-based, are available. And finally, if you have no insurance, you get
treated just like those who do, regardless of your ability to pay.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:22:42 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
Steve Kramer claims everyone in the US had equal access to health care,
regardless of ability to pay. There's nothing wrong with the current
system at all. Did Kramer write his Congresswoman that she's wasting her
time?
>
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:35:54 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:32:04 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
really? You mean if I cancel my insurance I can keep going to my same
doctors for free??? WOW. I'm surprised because last year my URO
stopped accepting my insurance company and said they would no longer
be able to treat me. I asked my insurance company if I could get out
of network coverage and said I would pay whatever excess the doctor
wanted that they were unwilling to pay. I asked the doctor if they
would be willing to take it on as out of network. Both the insurance
company and the Doctor's company said "forget it". My ONLY choice was
to skip the insurance completely and pay the full cost out of pocket
which was not something I could afford. I delayed treatment for over
4 months till I could enroll during the yearly open enrollment and
switch to an insurance company the doctor would accept. The delay
probably doubled the eventual cost of treatment and put me in the
hospital two times that I might otherwise not needed. And that's with
GREAT insurance coverage in the current system. So please tell me
again how I can get treated just the same without insurance as I can
with insurance. Or did you mean that absent insurance I'm free to
wander into an emergency room and waste the ER docs time that he
should be spending on actual emergency patients.
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:29:25 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: really? You mean if I cancel my insurance I can keep going to my same
: doctors for free???
You have added a parameter about which I did not comment. But, if you
insert "will be treated" for "can keep going to my doctors", it would be an
accurate, and sad, statement. Essentially, my daughter, with a pre-existing
condition, and extenuating circumstances, did exactly that. She DID keep
going to her doctors, but I think that was a fluke.
--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since; last checked on 06/04/09
Illegitimati non carborundum
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:06:40 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
So Kramer should be very happy with the administration's plan. Under
that plan his daughter would be forced to insure herself, the insurer
would be required to insure her, she would pay an affordable premium and
no longer be profiteering.
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:49:11 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
What makes you think you can cancel? You have some options, but you
must choose one, and "cancel" is not in the list.
When the uninsured arrive at the emergency room/ward they will be
enrolled and treated - in which order will probably depend on the
circumstances.
Same with a visit to the doctor's office.
>
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:40:45 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"RickMerrill" <...@news.eternal-september.org...
: : : : : :
: What makes you think you can cancel? You have some options, but you
: must choose one, and "cancel" is not in the list.
:
: When the uninsured arrive at the emergency room/ward they will be
: enrolled and treated - in which order will probably depend on the
: circumstances.
:
: Same with a visit to the doctor's office.
I'm not quite sure how it happened, but I think we agree.
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:05:57 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:40:45 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
Then my work here is done.
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On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:13:55 -0700, "Alex" <...@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com
"I.P. Freely" <...@newsfe15.iad...
Actually, there is little difference between the mortality rates for PCa in
the USA and the UK, according to an analysis of WHO data reported in the
Japanese Journal of Clinical Oncology:
http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/35/11/690
The incidence of prostate cancer in the US is higher, because of diagnostic
practices here -- 136 per 100,000 men, versus 49 per 100,000 in the UK. But
deaths from prostate cancer are about 26 per 100,000 males in the USA, and
about 28 per 100,000 in the UK.
Alex
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On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 14:49:07 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
That may be right: I mistyped "mortality" for "morbidity" this time.
From http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649 :
"Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for
common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in
Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United
Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K.
and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal
cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.
I.P.
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On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 09:28:49 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
If IP mistyped mortality for morbidity, i.e. if he meant to say
morbidity of PCa in the UK is 604% higher, than his argument must be
that the UK health system is better in discovering the disease than the
US system. Is IP now defending the NHS like Stephen Hawkins?
This quote doesn't support IP's claim that he mistyped. It does prove
that he relies on unreliable sources as the WHO numbers don't support
the discrepancy suggested at all. Same for Canada: PCa mortality (2004)
23.3; US (2005): 19.8. As the numbers are calculated per 100.000
inhabitants, the difference is statistically insignificant.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:54:50 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Proposed health care bill section 163 authorizes the inclusion of the
keys to your financial data magnetically encoded in your health care ID
card. This includes your Social Security number and gives the government
your checking/savings account and routing numbers so the government
can directly tap your account for any health care payments you owe.
No wonder the administration wanted to shove this bill through without
congressional or public review.
Re the success of socialized medicine:
From http://www.heritage.org/research/socialsecurity/hl276.cfm ...
Rationing by Waiting
One of the cruelest aspects of government-run health care systems in
other countries is the degree to which these systems engage in non-price
rationing of health care services. The hospital does not give out
tickets or numbers; it just places the people it is reluctant to serve
on a waiting list. Take the health care systems of Britain and New
Zealand, for example. In both countries hospital services are completely
paid for by government. Yet both countries also have long waiting lists
for hospital surgery. In Britain, with a population of about 55 million,
the number of people waiting for surgery is almost 800,000. In New
Zealand, with a population of three million, the waiting list is
currently about 50,000. In both countries the adverse effect on patients
is about the same. Elderly patients in need of a hip replacement may
wait in pain and discomfort for years. Patients waiting for heart
surgery are often risking their lives. Canada is a country that has had
a national health care program for only a few decades. But because the
demand for health care has proved insatiable, and because the Canadian
government has resolutely refused to increase spending beyond a level of
about 8.5 percent of the GNP, the waiting lines for surgery have been
growing. In the province of Newfoundland the wait for a hip replacement
is about six to ten months, the wait for cataract surgery is about two
months, for pap smears up to five months, for "urgent" pap smears two
months, and for CAT scans two months [I get my routine CTs within 48
hours wherever I want]. All over Canada heart patients wait for coronary
bypass surgery, and the Canadian press is frequently reporting episodes
of heart patients dying while on the waiting list.
Similar, more detailed, data on Canada includes this:
http://tinyurl.com/n37fo5
If you don't like my sources, Google your own. The results are consistent.
I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:58:27 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
Not exactly. Britain's population according to Google was 61 million
last year and New Zealand's 4.1 million.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:19:18 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Sorry, 7, but I just don't have any more time to post hard proof of your
factual errors, as virtually every line of your posts introduces yet
another one, ranging from yellow cake to your accusation that I equate
the value of one's life to his personal risk. This isn't a cop-out, it's
just simple fact. I LOVE a challenging debate, but this isn't one.
I.P.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:37:03 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:19:18 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
You know, if those "facts" you claim exist were so straight forward it
wouldn't be hard to find and post them LIKE I DID.
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On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:56:33 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Those of you who expect U.S. taxes on "the rich" to fund UHC might want
to read this: http://tinyurl.com/mntpze .
Bottom line: O's "tax on the rich" starts at the $250,000 income level,
but because that threshold includes corporations, it means the taxes
roll quickly downhill to YOUR jobs, salaries, benefits, and the prices
you pay for virtually everything. Implied result: your health care costs
will go UP under UHC because there will be more care being provided to
more people and YOU, not the rich, are paying for it.
I.P.
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:25:33 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:56:33 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
Health care costs WILL go up for sure if we do nothing. All I see
from the opposition is opposition, they provide nothing in the way of
implementable ways of fixing the problem. Recall that the primary
goal is to find a way to have minimal universal health care so those
who currently do not have any will have it. That will empty the
emergency rooms of illegal families with 6 kids who have the flu.
Almost every time I've been to the emergency room the majority of the
people there are NOT having emergencies but just have colds and flu
and coughs and have no other place to go to seek treatment. I hate
being in an emergency room for fear I will go in to get 3 stitches and
come out with a flu that lasts for a month. There's no free lunch,
... YES, adding coverage for people who don't have it is going to cost
some money. The money needs to come from somewhere. Based on the
number of people who seem horrified that taxes on those making more
then $250,000 a year might go up it would seem like 90% of the people
in this country must be making over $250,000. The degree to which
people who are making decent money fight over a $50 tax increase is,
to me, sickening, when the purpose of it is to provide health care for
the needy in a more efficient manner then they now get health care. I
don't know how anyone can consider the US "number one" when after many
decades we are still fighting over the question of extending health
care to the poor.
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 06:17:01 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Try reading the article before refuting it.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:25:59 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:41:19 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone" in the above. If you mean
that those who didn't wind up in combat should be given a lower
quality of care or less benefits, then I strongly disagree. Once you
get past WWII there has not been a war worth fighting and while I
don't disparage the service of those who fought in those wars, I in no
way feel they are entitled to any more then I receive as a career
taxpayer who has financially supported the "system" year in and year
out. There are LOTS of people who defend this country and make it
better in scores of ways besides shooting at other people. The other
issue I have with the notion you express is it's just another way of
establishing a =them vs us= view of things and puts those who should
be on the same side on opposite sides.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 09:56:22 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Governmental
Ask Loomis; he's the one who said, "WE deserve [VA care] too."
Lower quality of care? I should hope not, for normal medical issues. But
care for serious wounds incurred in combat? Of COURSE wounded soldiers
deserve greater care than the person who expects the same government to
repair his auto crash or ladder fall injuries. Of COURSE the combat vet
(or cop or fireman) deserves greater benefits than the civilian on the
same tax roles. The cop or combat soldier or fireman risks her very life
every day protecting not only everyone else's life but, in the case of
the soldier, her very *nation*. Pacifists can disagree all they damn
well want with war, but asking people to stop attacking us doesn't seem
to work, and I'd rather be dead than Red or a Jihadi. Your right to
submit to being forced to be either ends with my right not to be forced
to be either.
Combat soldiers pay virtually the same taxes you do; you're even on that
count.
Now add the hours and personal and family hardships they endure.
Add their injuries and deaths.
Whether you admit it or not, you're suckling from a golden teat provided
by their very blood, as am I in the sense that I get some of the same
benefits even though I am not a combat veteran.
BTW, who do you think funds military retirees’ disability pay, if they
get any?
Guess again. Almost every cent of their disability pay comes directly
out of their pension; the primary benefit is that what is taken from
their left pocket and put into their right pocket is not taxed.
Certainly. I are one, because I was never sent into combat because I was
too colorblind to fly airplanes. I thus deserve and get lesser pay and
medical benefits than combat soldiers, most of whom still get less than
they've earned. Anyone who feels they deserve the benefits soldiers,
combat or otherwise, get is welcome to join the Army and actually earn
those benefits. People our age have done exactly that. You and I are
very fortunate that so many soldiers chose and still choose to risk and
even give their lives so that you and I can argue politics without
imprisonment or death.
Volunteers, anyone?
Uh, them that honestly earn greater bennies, perks, cash, houses, cars,
and lives than the next dude does, deserves ‘em. It’s called capitalism,
it’s what motivates some people to excel, and it’s thus what makes a
nation prosper. If sheer hard work entitled individuals and a nation to
excel, why haven’t China and Mexico and Japan and many such nations
whose people work harder than Americans succeeded as well as we have?
The only way in which Bill Gates is on the opposite side from half the
country, including me, is his political ideology. He earned his wealth
the old-fashioned way, and I have zero right to any of it. The billions
he gives to charities is his generous prerogative, not their right.
I.P.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:19:36 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 09:56:22 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
You may have read what I wrote backwards.
I should hope not, for normal medical issues. But
I only buy into that line of thinking when you have draftees who are
their against their will. When people have volunteered they are on
the same footing as everyone else who chooses a particular line of
work. They should assess the costs and benefits, including health
benefits, when they choose what line of work to go into.
The cop or combat soldier or fireman risks her very life
The cop and fireman CHOOSE that line of work. And there are several
occupations with higher on the job death rates then cops and fireman.
Ditto for the volunteer military. Myself, sometimes, and my people
all the time, work on the highway where they are exposed to much
higher hazards then others. I've been on several ride along's with
cops and without exception the city cops refuse to make traffic stops
on the freeways because "it's too dangerous". One cop was literally a
split second away from flipping on his lights to pull a guy over and
the guy got into the left turn lane and entered the freeway. The cop
stopped his finger just before it flipped the switch and said he
wasn't going after him onto the freeway, too dangerous. The same
freeways I've got people working on eight hours a day, under traffic,
in 110 degree heat, inches from people going by at 70 mph. I'm not
expecting anyone to get teary eyed over this... my people hired on
knowing teh job, the go out and do the job, and they don't go whinning
about the hazards every time someone gets a hangnail like some police
departments do.
Pacifists can disagree all they damn
Of course it works. It works 99% of teh time, otherwise we'd be at
war with half the world constantly. War is the result of failed
diplomacy. Sometimes the failure is not our fault, and sometimes it
is. It was certainly our fault during bush jr's term. Hell, he even
had our friends hating us.
Your right to
If you restrict it to draftee's it's an ok argument. For the
volunteers and careerists I don't find it at all compelling.
same reply. People die every day providing services to the rest of
us. Defense is another service. They signed up for it.
You seem to forget that those are exactly the people who are in there.
People our age have done exactly that. You and I are
There seems to be plenty of volunteers so the cost benefit ratio must
be OK.
Give them time. If we could come back in 100 years I think we'd see
that the Chinese had taken over. The Japanese are already there for
all practical purposes. Mexico is a cesspool and I think it always
will be.
We might be wandering...
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:45:26 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
Whatever
I can't continue debating this with anyone who equates the risks,
motivations, and public benefits of working on road crews to going into
combat. I appreciate very much your earnest civility, 7, but unless
several lurkers tell us they're really getting their eyes opened by all
this, you and I are both wasting our time.
I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:33:09 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:45:26 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
First, I wasn't equating it with combat, I was drawing the comparison
between how cops view and avoid danger compared to how others view and
accept the same danger. There are many people, apparently including
you, who look down their nose at road workers, who face that danger
every day, as if their lost life doesn't mean much. I don't know how
many cops you've dealt with but there is a wide range of "quality".
Frankly, many of them are quite stupid and it's unlikely there is any
other job they would be able to hold that would pay anywhere near what
they get paid as cops. There are also some exceptionally bright cops
who could have a good career in almost any field. But the fact is,
the guy fishing in Alaska so you can enjoy King Crab legs at Red
lobster has a far more dangerous job then the cop does.
I don't expect any eyes will be opened. It's a very rare event. But
it does happen. A casual friend of mine was a huge bush supporter
(and generally a very conservative guy) 8 years ago. (incidentally, I
voted for bush the first time he ran - Gore's stance on guns was more
then I could stomach and bush said (too bad he didn't do) all the
right things. Anyway, my friend, after about 7 years of bush finally
saw the light. Maybe you will and maybe you won't, same for me from
your standpoint. I can tell you that when you are IN a frame of mind
and you are INVESTED in that world view it is not likely you will
easily change because, as they say on Star Trek, Shields are up and
photon torpedoes are armed. When change comes to your view it usually
comes fast and when the veil is lifted you suddenly see and understand
so many things that were just noise from the other side before. Most
people have their viewpoints set in stone by the time they are in
their early twenties and will never change them no matter how strong
contrary evidence is.
I don't consider it a waste of time having my views challenged.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:45:21 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: I don't know how
: many cops you've dealt with but there is a wide range of "quality".
: Frankly, many of them are quite stupid and it's unlikely there is any
: other job they would be able to hold that would pay anywhere near what
: they get paid as cops. There are also some exceptionally bright cops
: who could have a good career in almost any field.
I doubt that any study exists, but I think you'd find that there are very
few stupid policemen in significantly sized departments. A recent study
into Clinton's "extra 100,000 cops," while dismissing the myth gave some
interesting stats including the fact that there are 17,000 police agencies
and more than half have one employee. Maybe, in these smaller agencies, you
can find officers that appear to be inferior to your intelligence. While I
cannot account for all states, around here, all three states in our region
have academic minimums and require annual continuing education. One state,
Kentucky, offers added annual pay to all in-state police officers for
various levels of education. I was astonished recently to read a newspaper
article that reported that most cops in Cincinnati (and I assume the other
major departments here) have college degrees. I think the "hired thugs of
society" stereotype created by 60's-style hippies has fairly well expired.
: But the fact is,
: the guy fishing in Alaska so you can enjoy King Crab legs at Red
: lobster has a far more dangerous job then the cop does.
I believe that 'fact' is based on deaths within the specific occupation of
King Crab Fisherman as compared with the general occupation of policeman.
The same could be said about the general occupation of the military, but I'd
bet the Marines going into Fallujah could successfully argue the comparative
dangers Combat Marines vs. King Crab Fishermen. The same could argued by
inner-city policemen.
There are some other obvious altruistic vs monetary differences when
comparing Crab Fisherman, Military, Police, and Fire.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:28:33 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
The U.S. military primarily recruits people from the lowest social
classes, promising free education and health care, generally people that
have no other chance in society. Kramer wants you to believe the 18-year
olds that went to Iraq where motivated not by money, but by altruism.
Sure, just like their abusive recruiters:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/19/national/main1913849.shtml
>
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:02:52 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:45:21 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
Based on my experience as an expert witness and as a member of our
police review board for 5 years I would beg to differ. I find plenty
of dumb ones in the big city.
A recent study
I'd agree that things are a lot better now then in the past. One
reason police departments of any size wind up having policy manuals
many inch's think is that they have learned they can't trust that the
"good judgment" of their rank and file will actually be "good
judgment".
No,I just used them as an example of a member of the class. The class
is all types of fishing. In the fields of fishing and agriculture and
construction you are more likely to be killed on the job then if you
are a cop.
Not really sure what you are trying to say. I would guess that even
the Marines have a lower death rate then the fishermen.
You seem to suffer the romantic haze the same as IP. A huge number of
people become cops because it's a lot more fun then being an
accountant, or at least they think it will be. While many may start
out for altruistic reasons I suspect they lose that pretty quick if
they are sent to the "south side" for a while. They stay because it's
better then their alternatives, i.e. pays more.
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:57:41 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:45:21 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
: <...@cinci.rr.com
: Based on my experience as an expert witness and as a member of our
: police review board for 5 years I would beg to differ. I find plenty
: of dumb ones in the big city.
As a member of the policy review board, you probably would not see anything
else.
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:16:33 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:57:41 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
Surprisingly not the case. The cops who start as patrolmen and end as
patrolman tend to not be the sharpest pencil in the pack. But many of
the men who rise to the middle and upper ranks are very sharp. The
ones who WANT to be traffic cops and motorcycle cops tend toward the
dull pencil end of the scale. And while my experience is certainly
limited to a small slice of things, it seemed like minority cops
tended to be disproportionately represented in the group with poor
judgment. One thing the cleverer cops have done is make sure that the
"policies" provide a very wide latitude so that even if the actions of
the cop being reviewed clearly indicated poor judgment by any rational
measure, it's most often the case that it is still within "policy" and
hence "ok".
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On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 09:39:38 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: patrolman tend to not be the sharpest pencil in the pack. But many of
: the men who rise to the middle and upper ranks are very sharp.
Obviously, there are some patrolmen who do not compete successfully for
promotion. That's why they call it competition. It does might make one
less smart than another, but not stupid.
Surely there are patrolmen in AZ who joined to be cops and are not
interested in middle management. My father, though he competed successfully
on his first exam for Specialist (Detective in most places), never took
another exam because his job was so rewarding. And you don't think there
are some traffic cops in who are drawn to the scientific nature of accident
reconstruction? And there are no motorcycle cops who believe that they are
the most mobile of all cops or have pride in their uniforms and bikes,
and/or like the thrill of escorting VIPs?
Finally, I'd be very surprised if anyone but upper management and/or the CEO
makes policy.
I would like to discuss this further. If you would, please email me
privately. You are insulting prostate cancer patients in this forum, though
you may not know it.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 08:20:09 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone" in the above. If you mean
: that those who didn't wind up in combat should be given a lower
: quality of care or less benefits, then I strongly disagree.
To that, I agree. They should receive equal care, however. And, they do
not.
: Once you
: get past WWII there has not been a war worth fighting
I'm a "don't tread on me" guy, myself. But, there were many people, a
majority actually, who thought that WWII was "their problem, not ours" and
would have been very satisfied if Hitler gobbled up Europe and Africa and
Japan got southwest Asia. Sometimes, morality causes the biggest guy to
protect those around him and we should have done so. We lost our sense of
duty waiting for Pearl Harbor.
Furthermore, had Japan and Germany won in their theaters, they would have
combined their efforts and taken on Russia; then America. Germany was
already taking over South America and Japan landed in Alaska. Sometimes, it
doesn't take a genius to see where one's interests might be directly
assaulted with simple if/then statements.
Based on these two ideas; Greece was necessary and we won; Korea was
necessary and unfortunately victory was thwarted by politicians; Vietnam was
necessary and victory was thwarted by politicians; the first Gulf War was
necessary and victory was thwarted by a president who watched too much TV,
causing a 2nd war to be fought and destroying his son's political career
(though not his legacy). I give no credance to anyone who believes that
going after terrorists is not a moral and defensively necessary thing to do.
Come to think of it, a review of history would show that our wars that were
not worth fighting occurred mostly in the 19th Century.
: and while I
: don't disparage the service of those who fought in those wars, I in no
: way feel they are entitled to any more then I receive as a career
: taxpayer who has financially supported the "system" year in and year
: out. There are LOTS of people who defend this country and make it
: better in scores of ways besides shooting at other people.
They are entitled to receive care at taxpayers' expense for illnesses,
diseases, and wounds received in the service of our country (i.e., the
taxpayers). Would you not agree? I can understand a debate as to whether
we should foot the bill for lifelong treatment for a 3-year enlistment, but
not for guys who fought and were put into disrepair protecting us. I agree
with your second statement; we should provide 100% of the care to others who
protect us as well. It always amazed me that municipalities and states own
so many hospitals and health departments and policemen and firemen have to
pay for their care.
--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since; last checked on 06/04/09
Illegitimati non carborundum
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:04:00 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
I've confronted suspected thieves to protect strangers' property on the
street, for zero personal gain other than doing the right thing. It's
certainly debatable, but I feel my nation should do the same, within
reason. Some cases, such as helping defend Israel and fighting Al Qaeda,
et.al., are definitely within reason, IMO.
I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:57:19 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"I.P. Freely" <...@newsfe05.iad...
: : :
: I've confronted suspected thieves to protect strangers' property on the
: street, for zero personal gain other than doing the right thing. It's
: certainly debatable, but I feel my nation should do the same, within
: reason.
Exactly. I would say the only difference between personal and national
actions is that you (and I) risk all, which a nation cannot do.
--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since; last checked on 06/04/09
Illegitimati non carborundum
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:53:54 +0200, safire <...@tele-net.com
The U.S. has a long record of supporting the wrong side in many foreign
conflicts. Morality is typically not the top consideration. Apart from a
few frustrated U.S. veterans, including obsessive poster SK, the entire
world agrees the U.S. had no business in Vietnam as most people of that
country supported the communists and not the puppets of the south.
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:57:59 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 08:20:09 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
I don't disagree with the above. We had a clear enemy and a clear
goal and no other option.
Korea was
How are we any worse off? So half of Korea is not "free". Not my
problem. If those people want to be free let them rise up against
their government.
Vietnam was
It was not necessary. Had we "won" we would have simply extended our
stay in the quagmire, just as we have in Iraq. As it turned out, what
with us losing, the US and Viet Nam have both come out of that "loss"
just fine but the sad part is that had we never bothered wasting time,
money, and lives in that war things would have turned out pretty much
the same way. It's a classic war of no value except to the merchants
of death, pretty much like Iraq2.
the first Gulf War was
Why was it necessary? What was the downside to OUR guy, Saddam,
taking over Kuwait? You do realize that Kuwait is a fake monarchy?
Many AMERICAN lives, not to mention our tax dollars, have been lost to
defend the right of a few fake monarchs to remain obscenely rich. And
Kuwait was stealing Iraq's oil, that's what started the war, by
oblique drilling into Iraq oil deposits. While the US blathers about
"supporting and spreading democracy" we are busy propping up fake
monarchies and dictatorships.
As to the "causing a 2nd war". The ONLY cause of that war was the
mental illness of our last president who lied us into the war. A war
that should never have been waged. It's been documented that Saddam
was ready and willing to leave Iraq to avoid a war but the US refused
to let that happen. This was a needless war that the leadership, if
you can call it that, of the US choose to wage based on a thin tissue
of lies. Had we simply allowed Saddam to leave and provided him with
a safe harbor the deaths of 100,000's of men, women, and children
could have been avoided. Not to mention that we could very possibly
have avoided the depression we are now in because we would not have
squandered our nations wealth blowing up people and things.
I give no credence to anyone who believes that
There are many ways to go after them. Invading other countries based
on easily uncovered lies is one of the worst ways. Particularly when
said invasion is fertilizer for the terrorists.
Not any history I've seen.
Yes, while they are employed in the military they should get medical
coverage just like any other employee of a company should, but not all
do, get medical coverage from their employer. And I think it's fair
that they get continuing coverage after the leave the military for
medical conditions caused by their military service. I would hold the
save view for anyone working for a private company... if their job
created a medical condition, that private company should take care of
their treatment for life. Now, having said all that, there is a much
easier way to take care of not only those sorts of medical problems
but also some of our other societal medical problems, and that is by
having some form of "health coverage" that EVERYONE is included in so
we don't need to create all these different classes of citizens and
keep track of where they got sick and who should be responsible for
paying for their care and on and on. We just should establish a
system that everyone can be included in for medical care. I don't see
how we can consider the USA to be a mature civilized country if we
don't see to it that everyone who is legally here can get medical care
whether they can afford it or not. that does not mean that every
drunk is entitled to as many liver transplants as they need.
I can understand a debate as to whether
As to the last, I think it really is semantics. The police and
firemen don't pay for their care. They are paid a good salary and
have good benefits including health care. Again it goes back to the
us against them thinking. I don't value the lives of cops or fireman
any higher then my own life or my families lives and think all should
be able to get decent health care. I suppose we can argue about what
level of care is "decent" but that's secondary. If I was setting up
the system there would be a lower level of "free" health care and
anyone wanting better would have the option of paying for it. I would
prefer that the "free" care be like the current VA system where you
take what you can get. I'd move the veterans to a higher tier that
would be like the more typical large employer health plans with some
variable co pay depending on their ability to pay. I'd like to see a
system with at least three levels. The "VA" level, then a good basic
plan as I just outlined, and then a deluxe plan for those who are
willing to pay higher premiums. Unlike some, I don't think "everyone"
is entitled to "deluxe" health care anymore then everyone is entitled
to a Cadillac... some people only get to ride the bus.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:27:15 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
What other option do you propose to avert or slow Al Qaeda's vow to kill
or convert every non-Muslim on the planet?
Look, I don't hate irrational pacifists; we need them as control rods
before war and for milk and cookies after them. What I hate is their
dangerous, total lack of reality. I'm glad to see people (like you, to
some degree) tread middle ground, but wish more of them would look at
the bigger, more factual, more pragmatic picture. If not having a clear
picture means we should not act, which city needs to be nuked first ...
and why are we so eager to burden our children with hundreds of
thousands of dollars of debt in order to replace the world's finest
health care system with some undefined mandate? Why not just improve
what we have at 1% or 10% of the expense?
There were many reasons for the Iraq war, both parts I and II, some
quite valid IMO. Looking at the larger picture, the war against Jihadi
has already saved tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of homeland lives
by averting specific, imminent terrorist attacks.
The time to renege on our pacts to defend Kuwait (and Israel, and South
Viet Nam, and South Korea, and whoever else you think we should
abandon) is BEFORE, not after, they are attacked. Otherwise our word is
meaningless. If the administration abandons Israel at this stage, I will
join our First Lady in her pre-election shame at being an American.
I've heard audiences numbering in the millions challenged for years to
name one Bush lie. Not one person has succeeded. Can you? Jeez, let me
guess ... you think Bush went AWOL and Palin supported banning some books.
Well, DUH! (if thats true); you want his far more heinous sons in charge?
I can only hope our nation and the world can survive the profound
ignorance on so many levels demonstrated in both of those oft-heard,
completely irrational, stunningly misinformed talking points. I'm
surprised to see anyone here repeat them.
That's all we get. If a specific medical problem is not
"service-connected", it's not covered by the VA. Getting each problem
declared "service-connected" is a very difficult, long, unlikely process
requiring thorough military hospital documentation and hard proof.
Who is currently denied medical care?
You consider $50k good pay for risking death for your benefit? How many
have to DIE serving you before you stop saying they don't pay for their
care?
I sure as hell do. I just hope I'm willing and able to risk my life to
aid a fireman, cop, or soldier in trouble ... just as I hope that if I
do, s/he wasn't one of the rotten apples that are present in every barrel.
Huh?
My God, but the public is ignorant of the VA system. That's OK, but they
shouldn't make operational assumptions or judgments based on it. Our
copay is very explicitly tied directly to our ability to pay, just as
surely as the availability of treatment for any specific medical problem
is tied explicitly to its connection to their service.
Yes ... but the bus is all we'll have in any system modeled on the
bankrupt UK or Canadian systems.
I.P.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:15:40 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:27:15 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
We go after THEM, we don't just go around invading countries and
getting mired in no win wars.
We don't have the worlds finest health care system. You are like most
typical Americans, you think anything we have is automatically better
then anything anyone else has. We have a mediocre health care system
as far as developed country's go. You need to stop basing all your
assessments on your own personal situation. Maybe YOU have wonderful
health care, that doesn't make the COUNTRIES health care system
wonderful. For the 40 million or so that have no coverage it's not
such a great system.
Laughable. We have averted pretty much nothing. There have been NO
specific imminent attacks averted because there have not been ANY
credible attacks even attempted. Unless you count fantasies of the
mentally defective who are egged on by FBI agents to be credible
attack plans. If Al Quida had any interest in doing massive damage
there are dozens of simple ways to do it yet not a single "attack" has
occurred. You want to kill dozens quickly with no chance of being
stopped? Simple - wait for the Amtrak to come by at high speed and
just before it gets there pull your big truck onto the tracks. You
want to make it more spectacular? Enlist a dozen other terrorists to
do this at multiple locations all at the same time, give or take half
an hour. Or poison a city water system. All you need is to rent a
house, buy a high pressure pump, and pump poison backward INTO the
city mains. Enlist a dozen other terrorists to do this at the same
time from multiple locations thru out the city. Yet NONE of these or
other similarly simple terrorist attacks are happening. That should
tell you something.
Our packs to defend others does not extent to defending them when they
have engaged in lawless acts against other countries. And our word is
meaningless, Bush made sure of that.
If you've not heard of his lies you just aren't listening. One was
the yellow cake lie. he had been advised it wasn't try yet he kept on
saying it. Another was the forged document that he kept holding up.
Even his staff knew these things were not true and when they saw
mention of them in his speeches they told him they weren't true and
took them out. Yet in spite of being told his claims had no factual
basis he continued to put them forth, i.e. lie. There are dozens of
these that have been documented over and over.
As I recall, his family was included. It doesn't really matter, with
Saddam gone we could have moved into the country and quietly taken it
over without displacing most of the population and making them hate
us.
I can only hope that we now have adults in charge of the gvt who will
stop trying to live out their "war president" fantasies by spilling
the blood of other people's sons and daughters.
And if we had universal health care you wouldn't have to prove
anything. Why are you so invested in a system you don't even like???
Those who can't get it.
Do you ever deal in facts instead of emotion? 50K is damn good pay
for someone with a high school education and no other discernable
skills. You keep talking about them "risking death". The on the job
death rate is higher for several other occupations, being a cop is not
all that dangerous. Few cops ever even draw their gun in their entire
career. Most cops who are shot are shot by other cops by mistake.
You can see some statistics here...
Notice that cops don't even make the top 10 on this list...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/07/27/us/miners-found-to-have-highest-death-rate-on -job.html
Here's a slightly newer compilation of the info from the first link,
which was 2005. In this update cops made it into the top ten as
number 10.
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/safety/memorial/upload/_9.pdf
Why do you have this romantic view that the more likely you are to be
killed, the more valuable your life is???
I'm not promoting their system, just the notion that we need to do
something to fix our system. I don't want single payer.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:17:13 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: How are we any worse off? So half of Korea is not "free". Not my
: problem. If those people want to be free let them rise up against
: their government.
Well, let's see... The war never ended. We had an armictice with them
until 12/31/99 and it expired. We have a good number of military serving
under 'veteran of foreign wars' status even unto today. The nut in charge
is lobbing missiles toward nations friendly to us, nations under our
protection, and threatening islands we possess; including a state.
I agree that from our perspective, and considering our history, the North
Koreans should take out their government, but I cannot judge them too
harshly considering the fear and conditions forced upon them and their
history. Remember, between the Chinese, Japanese, and NATO, they have been,
for all intents and purposes, under seige for the better part of a century.
They are hardly in a position to envision alternatives.
: Vietnam was
: :
: It was not necessary. Had we "won" we would have simply extended our
: stay in the quagmire, just as we have in Iraq. As it turned out, what
: with us losing, the US and Viet Nam have both come out of that "loss"
: just fine but the sad part is that had we never bothered wasting time,
: money, and lives in that war things would have turned out pretty much
: the same way. It's a classic war of no value except to the merchants
: of death, pretty much like Iraq2.
'Tis true, when we defeat an enemy, we do tend to stick around. Of all the
places we've stayed, I can only think of one, Cuba, that wants us out. That
makes us stronger, not weaker - richer, not poorer.
: As to the "causing a 2nd war". The ONLY cause of that war was the
: mental illness of our last president who lied us into the war.
I did not get further in your post. I misjudged to whom I was speaking.
There is no sense in discussing it further.
To all others, I am sorry for stepping outside the topic again.
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:37:05 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:17:13 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
We pay to stay. It's not making us richer.
Pity. But not unusual that you (the generic you) don't want to face
known facts. Those who history have proven wrong never do. The war
was not necessary. A diplomatic solution HAD been obtained. Bush
refused to accept victory, he was determined that he was going to be a
"war president".
>
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:05:25 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: Pity. But not unusual that you (the generic you) don't want to face
: known facts.
Double-O,
The problem is not that I don't know the facts (nor do I assert that I know
all the facts). But, they obviously do not include a "mentally ill"
president. Once this is asserted as a fact, there is really no reason for
me to continue reading or to discuss the other inaccuracies.
I don't doubt that you believe what you've written, so there is no sense in
pursuing it. How could I possibly prove to you that he was not. The best I
could do is opine that my experience would indicate he was a man in full
command of his mental facilities and dedicated to the protection of the
United States. What is the likelihood I could convince you based on my
experience and opinion? None.
I would much rather argue over preferred treatment modalities for Gleason 6
and Gleason 7 prostate cancers. Sadly, life and death issues have far less
potential for passionate diatribe than does politics.
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:47:35 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:05:25 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<...@cinci.rr.com
it's interesting that you glommed on to a totally meaningless issue,
whether bush is mental or not, and made it the focus and then chose to
withdraw. Even if we accepted that he was perfectly sane, he still
made provably stupid decisions that flew in the face of known facts
and that resulted in the deaths of 100,000's . We achieved NOTHING
after 7 years of war that couldn't have easily been achieved without
going to war. As I said, it has been factually demonstrated that
everything was in place to move Saddam out and provide a peaceful take
over of IRAQ but Bush refused to allow it to happen. And after we
went to war every alleged fact that lead us to "no other option" has
been shown to be a lie. Or if lie is too strong a word for you, it's
been shown that every significant thing those in power claimed was
true turned out to be false. remember Colin Powell testifying that we
had incontrovertible proof of -this that and the other thing- and
Colin later admitted that when he went back and checked he found that
he had been lied to about the validity of the intelligence and that he
had been made a fool and liar on the witness chair. Do you think he's
some liberal coward who was eager to admit that he was used as a
stooge by Bush and his cabal? you can be sure he was not and only
does so because he has found that the TRUTH was not what he was told
it was. And as with everyone else who dares to tell the truth, as
soon as he divulged this he was attacked by the bush white house.
These are facts Steve.
But I agree that it would be better if this NG went back to worrying
about PC doubling times, etc rather then rehashing things that will
change no one's mind.
>
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:54:36 -0400, "Steve Kramer" <...@cinci.rr.com
"DoubleOwSeven" <...@4ax.com...
: it's interesting that you glommed on to a totally meaningless issue,
: whether bush is mental or not, and made it the focus and then chose to
: withdraw.
I think you misunderstand. I can stand toe-to-toe with many in the
discussion of the history of this war and its conceptual ideas dating back
to the end of WWII (a nuance I think many people miss). I can opine as to
mistakes made and the very obvious successes. I can even offer my
concurence that presidents for which I voted made some terrible mistakes. I
suspect that set me apart from a lot of people here.
What I cannot do is go toe-to-toe with someone who starts out with "he is
mentally ill". I dismiss all other arguments, whether accurate or not, for
how can I know? Now, I could be wrong even about that, but in lieu of other
evidence, I personnally saw no evidence of it in my observations of him;
which include whole speeches (including the one announcing his Iraq
intentions), entire discussions at teleprompter-free events, and without
reliance on media.
What I will not do is further discuss it in this forum.
: But I agree that it would be better if this NG went back to worrying
: about PC doubling times, etc rather then rehashing things that will
: change no one's mind.
Concur.
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On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:18:06 -0700, "I.P. Freely" <...@noway.nohow
It took ONE CLICK in Google to reveal that your cronies MSNBC and the AP
say you're wrong, 7, that the Arab League, not Bush, blocked Saddam's
last-minute deal. See
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9864433/
Lie, by definition, means the statement was known to be false when made.
Every intel agency, and Saddam himself, said he still had WMD.
Jeez ... this is like shooting fish in a barrel ... and about as
challenging.
I.P.
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:32:20 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:18:06 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<...@noway.nohow
I read it. They didn't "block" it, they just choose to ignore it and
not move it forward. The Arab League has no ability to block anything
the US wants to do. If Bush had wanted to avoid the war it was within
his power to do so and all the pieces were in place. The fiction that
the US was powerless to move this NON-WAR option forward is ludicrous.
Bush chose to let this opportunity slip by because all he ever wanted
as an outcome was a war so he could be a pretend "war president".
That's one of the reasons I consider the man mentally ill.
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:29:04 -0400, RickMerrill <...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
You may be insulting all cowboys, so you can take it easy on the mental
evaluation;-)
Clearly Saddam was expert at creating impressions "I've got WMD's, fear
me", "I have NO WMDs, be nice to me.", "The league will block" - all
were part of Saddam's amazing politics. We can be glad both Saddam and
Bush are gone. What will Cheney say in his new book! Could be great
fodder for us Bush-bashers!
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On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:32:56 -0700, DoubleOwSeven <...@yahoo.com
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:29:04 -0400, RickMerrill
<...@gmail.NOSPAM.com
Is Cheney writing a book? That could be interesting but I'd hate to
have to pay and help him make more money. Maybe I can check it out at
the library.
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