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A N Wilson: Why I Believe Again

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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:25:31 +1000, **Rowland Croucher** <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite

Why I believe again

A N Wilson

Published 02 April 2009

A N Wilson writes on how his conversion to atheism may have been similar
to a road to Damascus experience but his return to faith has been slow
and doubting

Unlike his conversion to Atheism, Wilson's path back to faith has been a
slow one

By nature a doubting Thomas, I should have distrusted the symptoms when
I underwent a “conversion experience” 20 years ago. Something was
happening which was out of character – the inner glow of complete
certainty, the heady sense of being at one with the great tide of fellow
non-believers. For my conversion experience was to atheism. There were
several moments of epiphany, actually, but one of the most dramatic
occurred in the pulpit of a church.

At St Mary-le-Bow in the City of London, there are two pulpits, and for
some decades they have been used for lunchtime dialogues. I had just
published a biography of C S Lewis, and the rector of St Mary-le-Bow,
Victor Stock, asked me to participate in one such exchange of views.

Memory edits, and perhaps distorts, the highlights of the discussion.
Memory says that while Father Stock was asking me about Lewis, I began
to “testify”, denouncing Lewis’s muscular defence of religious belief.
Much more to my taste, I said, had been the approach of the late
Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey, whose biography I had just read.

A young priest had been to see him in great distress, saying that he had
lost his faith in God. Ramsey’s reply was a long silence followed by a
repetition of the mantra “It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter”. He told
the priest to continue to worship Jesus in the Sacraments and that faith
would return. “But!” exclaimed Father Stock. “That priest was me!”

Like many things said by this amusing man, it brought the house down.
But something had taken a grip of me, and I was thinking (did I say it
out loud?): “It bloody well does matter. Just struggling on like Lord
Tennyson (‘and faintly trust the larger hope’) is no good at all . . .”

I can remember almost yelling that reading C S Lewis’s Mere Christianity
made me a non-believer – not just in Lewis’s version of Christianity,
but in Christianity itself. On that occasion, I realised that after a
lifetime of churchgoing, the whole house of cards had collapsed for me –
the sense of God’s presence in life, and the notion that there was any
kind of God, let alone a merciful God, in this brutal, nasty world. As
for Jesus having been the founder of Christianity, this idea seemed
perfectly preposterous. In so far as we can discern anything about Jesus
from the existing documents, he believed that the world was about to
end, as did all the first Christians. So, how could he possibly have
intended to start a new religion for Gentiles, let alone established a
Church or instituted the Sacraments? It was a nonsense, together with
the idea of a personal God, or a loving God in a suffering universe.
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.

It was such a relief to discard it all that, for months, I walked on
air. At about this time, the Independent on Sunday sent me to interview
Dr Billy Graham, who was conducting a mission in Syracuse, New York
State, prior to making one of his journeys to England. The pattern of
these meetings was always the same. The old matinee idol spoke. The
gospel choir sang some suitably affecting ditty, and then the converted
made their way down the aisles to commit themselves to the new faith.
Part of the glow was, surely, the knowledge that they were now part of a
great fellowship of believers.

As a hesitant, doubting, religious man I’d never known how they felt.
But, as a born-again atheist, I now knew exactly what satisfactions were
on offer. For the first time in my 38 years I was at one with my own
generation. I had become like one of the Billy Grahamites, only in
reverse. If I bumped into Richard Dawkins (an old colleague from Oxford
days) or had dinner in Washington with Christopher Hitchens (as I did
either on that trip to interview Billy Graham or another), I did not
have to feel out on a limb. Hitchens was excited to greet a new convert
to his non-creed and put me through a catechism before uncorking some
stupendous claret. “So – absolutely no God?” “Nope,” I was able to say
with Moonie-zeal. “No future life, nothing ‘out there’?” “No,” I
obediently replied. At last! I could join in the creed shared by so many
(most?) of my intelligent contemporaries in the western world – that men
and women are purely material beings (whatever that is supposed to
mean), that “this is all there is” (ditto), that God, Jesus and religion
are a load of baloney: and worse than that, the cause of much (no, come
on, let yourself go), most (why stint yourself – go for it, man), all
the trouble in the world, from Jerusalem to Belfast, from Washington to
Islamabad.

My doubting temperament, however, made me a very unconvincing atheist.
And unconvinced. My hilarious Camden Town neighbour Colin Haycraft, the
boss of Duckworth and husband of Alice Thomas Ellis, used to say, “I do
wish Freddie [Ayer] wouldn’t go round calling himself an atheist. It
implies he takes religion seriously.”

This creed that religion can be despatched in a few brisk arguments
(outlined in David Hume’s masterly Dialogues Concerning Natural
Religion) and then laughed off kept me going for some years. When I
found myself wavering, I would return to Hume in order to pull myself
together, rather as a Catholic having doubts might return to the shrine
of a particular saint to sustain them while the springs of faith ran dry.

But religion, once the glow of conversion had worn off, was not a matter
of argument alone. It involves the whole person. Therefore I was drawn,
over and over again, to the disconcerting recognition that so very many
of the people I had most admired and loved, either in life or in books,
had been believers. Reading Louis Fischer’s Life of Mahatma Gandhi, and
following it up with Gandhi’s own autobiography, The Story of My
Experiments With Truth, I found it impossible not to realise that all
life, all being, derives from God, as Gandhi gave his life to
demonstrate. Of course, there are arguments that might make you doubt
the love of God. But a life like Gandhi’s, which was focused on God so
deeply, reminded me of all the human qualities that have to be denied if
you embrace the bleak, muddled creed of a materialist atheist. It is a
bit like trying to assert that music is an aberration, and that although
Bach and Beethoven are very impressive, one is better off without a
musical sense. Attractive and amusing as David Hume was, did he confront
the complexities of human existence as deeply as his contemporary Samuel
Johnson, and did I really find him as interesting?

Watching a whole cluster of friends, and my own mother, die over quite a
short space of time convinced me that purely materialist “explanations”
for our mysterious human existence simply won’t do – on an intellectual
level. The phenomenon of language alone should give us pause. A
materialist Darwinian was having dinner with me a few years ago and we
laughingly alluded to how, as years go by, one forgets names. Eager, as
committed Darwinians often are, to testify on any occasion, my friend
asserted: “It is because when we were simply anthropoid apes, there was
no need to distinguish between one another by giving names.”

This credal confession struck me as just as superstitious as believing
in the historicity of Noah’s Ark. More so, really.

Do materialists really think that language just “evolved”, like finches’
beaks, or have they simply never thought about the matter rationally?
Where’s the evidence? How could it come about that human beings all
agreed that particular grunts carried particular connotations? How could
it have come about that groups of anthropoid apes developed the amazing
morphological complexity of a single sentence, let alone the whole
grammatical mystery which has engaged Chomsky and others in our lifetime
and linguists for time out of mind? No, the existence of language is one
of the many phenomena – of which love and music are the two strongest –
which suggest that human beings are very much more than collections of
meat. They convince me that we are spiritual beings, and that the
religion of the incarnation, asserting that God made humanity in His
image, and continually restores humanity in His image, is simply true.
As a working blueprint for life, as a template against which to measure
experience, it fits.

For a few years, I resisted the admission that my atheist-conversion
experience had been a bit of middle-aged madness. I do not find it easy
to articulate thoughts about religion. I remain the sort of person who
turns off Thought for the Day when it comes on the radio. I am shy to
admit that I have followed the advice given all those years ago by a
wise archbishop to a bewildered young man: that moments of unbelief
“don’t matter”, that if you return to a practice of the faith, faith
will return.

When I think about atheist friends, including my father, they seem to me
like people who have no ear for music, or who have never been in love.
It is not that (as they believe) they have rumbled the tremendous fraud
of religion – prophets do that in every generation. Rather, these
unbelievers are simply missing out on something that is not difficult to
grasp. Perhaps it is too obvious to understand; obvious, as lovers feel
it was obvious that they should have come together, or obvious as the
final resolution of a fugue.

I haven’t mentioned morality, but one thing that finally put the tin hat
on any aspirations to be an unbeliever was writing a book about the
Wagner family and Nazi Germany, and realising how utterly incoherent
were Hitler’s neo-Darwinian ravings, and how potent was the opposition,
much of it from Christians; paid for, not with clear intellectual
victory, but in blood. Read Pastor Bonhoeffer’s book Ethics, and ask
yourself what sort of mad world is created by those who think that
ethics are a purely human construct. Think of Bonhoeffer’s serenity
before he was hanged, even though he was in love and had everything to
look forward to.

My departure from the Faith was like a conversion on the road to
Damascus. My return was slow, hesitant, doubting. So it will always be;
but I know I shall never make the same mistake again. Gilbert Ryle, with
donnish absurdity, called God “a category mistake”. Yet the real
category mistake made by atheists is not about God, but about human
beings. Turn to the Table Talk of Samuel Taylor Coleridge – “Read the
first chapter of Genesis without prejudice and you will be convinced at
once . . . ‘The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life’.” And then Coleridge
adds: “‘And man became a living soul.’ Materialism will never explain
those last words.”

New Statesman

*****

Can you love god and agree with Darwin?

Published 02 April 2009

AN Wilson on his return to faith after a period of atheism

Has fear of death helped your faith return?

Fear of death.....The approach of death certainly concentrates the mind.
My growing hunch or intimation that dead friends are still in some
mysterious sense with us was part of the "return". Fear of death has
never played a large part in my consciousness - perhaps unimaginative of
me. I might be deceiving myself but I do not think that I do have an
inordinate fear of death.

Do people like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins simply not get life?

I think on the whole that's right, that clever as the professional
atheists are, they are missing out on some very basic experiences of life.

What's the worst thing about being faithless?

The worst thing about being faithless? When I thought I was an atheist I
would listen to the music of Bach and realize that his perception of
life was deeper, wiser, more rounded than my own. Ditto when I read the
lives of great men and women who were religious.

Reading Northrop Frye and Blake made me realize that their world-view
(above all their ability to see the world in mythological terms) is so
much more INTERESTING than some of the alternative ways of looking at life.

Of the things that drove you atheism, what have you still to resolve?

Childish playground things - religious people aren't cool, religious
people have spots, wear specs, all those feelings; embarrassment at
being in the same gang as people whose views sound, and perhaps are,
absurd ; or worse than absurd. The disconcerting sense that certain
psychological types (often v unappealing) seem to be drawn to religion.
I very much dislike the intolerance and moralism of many Christians, and
feel more sympathy with Honest Doubters than with them.

Can you love god and agree with Darwin?

I think you can love God and agree with the author of The Voyage of the
Beagle, the Earth Worm, and most of the Origin of Species.

The Descent of Man, with its talk of savages, its belief that black
people are more primitive than white people, and much nonsense besides,
is an offence to the intelligence - and is obviously incompatible with
Christianity.

I think the jury is out about whether the theory of Natural selection,
as defined by neo-Darwinians is true, and whether serious scientific
doubts, as expressed in a new book Why Us by James Lefanu, deserve to be
taken seriously. For example, does the discovery of the complex
structure of DNA and the growth in knowledge in genetics require a
rethink of Darwinian "gradualism". But these are scientific rather than
religious questions.

New Statesman

*****

Religion of hatred: Why we should no longer be cowed by the chattering
classes ruling Britain who sneer at Christianity

By A N Wilson

11th April 2009

A week ago, there were Palm Sunday processions all over the world. Near
my house in North London is a parish with two churches. About 70 or 80
of us gathered at one of these buildings to collect our palms.

We were told by the priest: 'Where we are standing in Kentish Town does
not look much like a Judaean hillside, and the other church to which we
are walking does not look much like Jerusalem. But as we go, holding our
palms, let us try to imagine the first Palm Sunday.'
Jesus Christ: With sneering doubters becoming ever more vocal in their
dismissive attitudes towards Christianity AN Wilson says we should no
longer be cowed

Jesus Christ: With sneering doubters becoming ever more vocal in their
dismissive attitudes towards Christianity AN Wilson says we should no
longer be cowed

And so we set off, singing All Glory, Laud And Honour! and holding up
our palm crosses, to the faint bemusement of passersby, who looked out
of their windows at us, tooted their horns as we blocked the traffic or
smiled from sunny pavements.

We were walking, as it were, in the footsteps of Jesus as he entered
Jerusalem on a donkey while crowds threw palms before him. Except our
journey was along the pavements strewn with the usual North London
discarded syringes, chewing gum and Kentucky Fried Chicken boxes.

When we had reached our destination, a small choir and two priests sang
the whole of St Mark's account of the last week of Jesus's life - that
part of the Gospel that is called The Passion.

It is said the chant used for this recitation dates back to the music
used in the Jewish Temple in Jesus's day.

We heard of his triumphal, palm-strewn procession into Jerusalem, his
clash with the Temple authorities, his agonised prayer in the garden of
Gethsemane, his arrest by the Roman guards, his torture, his trial
before Pontius Pilate, his Crucifixion and his death.

So there we were, all believers, and a disparate group of people, of
various ages, races and classes, re-enacting once more this
extraordinary story.

A story of a Jewish prophet falling foul of the authorities in an
eastern province of the Roman Empire, and being punished, as were
thousands of Jews during the governorship of Pontius Pilate, by the
gruesome torture of crucifixion.

This Easter weekend we revisit the extraordinary ending of that story -
the discovery by some women friends of Jesus that his tomb was empty.
And we read of the reactions of the disciples - fearful, incredulous,
but eventually believing that, as millions of Christians will proclaim
tomorrow morning: 'The Lord is risen indeed!'
Richard Dawkins

Athiest: Richard Dawkins

But how many in Britain today actually believe the story? Most recent
polls have shown that considerably less than half of us do - yet that
won't, of course, stop us tucking into Easter eggs (symbolising new
life) and simnel cake (decorated with 11 marzipan balls representing the
11 true disciples, with Judas missing).

For much of my life, I, too, have been one of those who did not believe.
It was in my young manhood that I began to wonder how much of the Easter
story I accepted, and in my 30s I lost any religious belief whatsoever.

Like many people who lost faith, I felt anger with myself for having
been 'conned' by such a story. I began to rail against Christianity, and
wrote a book, entitled Jesus, which endeavoured to establish that he had
been no more than a messianic prophet who had well and truly failed, and
died.

Why did I, along with so many others, become so dismissive of Christianity?

Like most educated people in Britain and Northern Europe (I was born in
1950), I have grown up in a culture that is overwhelmingly secular and
anti-religious. The universities, broadcasters and media generally are
not merely non-religious, they are positively anti.

To my shame, I believe it was this that made me lose faith and heart in
my youth. It felt so uncool to be religious. With the mentality of a
child in the playground, I felt at some visceral level that being
religious was unsexy, like having spots or wearing specs.

This playground attitude accounts for much of the attitude towards
Christianity that you pick up, say, from the alternative comedians, and
the casual light blasphemy of jokes on TV or radio.

It also lends weight to the fervour of the anti-God fanatics, such as
the writer Christopher Hitchens and the geneticist Richard Dawkins, who
think all the evil in the world is actually caused by religion.

The vast majority of media pundits and intelligentsia in Britain are
unbelievers, many of them quite fervent in their hatred of religion itself.

The Guardian's fanatical feminist-in-chief, Polly Toynbee, is one of the
most dismissive of religion and Christianity in particular. She is
president of the British Humanist Association, an associate of the
National Secular Society and openly scornful of the millions of Britons
who will quietly proclaim their faith in Church tomorrow.
JO BRAND

Self-satisfied tv personalities like Jo Brand are openly non-believers

'Of all the elements of Christianity, the most repugnant is the notion
of the Christ who took our sins upon himself and sacrificed his body in
agony to save our souls. Did we ask him to?' she asked in a puerile
article decrying the wickedness of C.S. Lewis's Narnia stories, which
have bewitched children for more than 50 years. Or, to take another of
her utterances: 'When absolute God-given righteousness beckons, blood
flows and women are in chains.'

The sneering Ms Toynbee, like Richard Dawkins, believes in rational
explanations for our existence and behaviour. She is deeply committed to
the Rationalist Association, but her approach to religion is too
fanatical to be described as rational.

Perhaps it goes back to her relationship with her nice old dad, Philip
Toynbee, a Thirties public school Marxist who, before he died, made the
hesitant journey from unbelief to a questing Christianity.

The Polly Toynbees of this world ignore all the benign aspects of
religion and see it purely as a sinister agent of control, especially
over women.

One suspects this is how it is viewed in most liberal circles, in
university common rooms, at the BBC and, perhaps above all, sadly, by
the bishops of the Church of England, who despite their episcopal
regalia, nourish few discernible beliefs that could be distinguished
from the liberalism of the age.
Jonathan Ross

Smug: Jonathan Ross

For ten or 15 of my middle years, I, too, was one of the mockers. But,
as time passed, I found myself going back to church, although at first
only as a fellow traveller with the believers, not as one who shared the
faith that Jesus had truly risen from the grave. Some time over the past
five or six years - I could not tell you exactly when - I found that I
had changed.

When I took part in the procession last Sunday and heard the Gospel
being chanted, I assented to it with complete simplicity.

My own return to faith has surprised no one more than myself. Why did I
return to it? Partially, perhaps it is no more than the confidence I
have gained with age.

Rather than being cowed by them, I relish the notion that, by asserting
a belief in the risen Christ, I am defying all the liberal clever-clogs
on the block: cutting-edge novelists such as Martin Amis; foul-mouthed,
self-satisfied TV presenters such as Jonathan Ross and Jo Brand; and the
smug, tieless architects of so much television output.

But there is more to it than that. My belief has come about in large
measure because of the lives and examples of people I have known - not
the famous, not saints, but friends and relations who have lived, and
faced death, in the light of the Resurrection story, or in the quiet
acceptance that they have a future after they die.

The Easter story answers their questions about the spiritual aspects of
humanity. It changes people's lives because it helps us understand that
we, like Jesus, are born as spiritual beings.

Every inner prompting of conscience, every glimmering sense of beauty,
every response we make to music, every experience we have of love -
whether of physical love, sexual love, family love or the love of
friends - and every experience of bereavement, reminds us of this fact
about ourselves.

Ah, say the rationalists. But no one can possibly rise again after
death, for that is beyond the realm of scientific possibility.

And it is true to say that no one can ever prove - nor, indeed, disprove
- the existence of an after-life or God, or answer the conundrums of
honest doubters (how does a loving God allow an earthquake in Italy?)

Easter does not answer such questions by clever-clever logic. Nor is it
irrational. On the contrary, it meets our reason and our hearts
together, for it addresses the whole person.

In the past, I have questioned its veracity and suggested that it should
not be taken literally. But the more I read the Easter story, the better
it seems to fit and apply to the human condition. That, too, is why I
now believe in it.

Easter confronts us with a historical event set in time. We are faced
with a story of an empty tomb, of a small group of men and women who
were at one stage hiding for their lives and at the next were brave
enough to face the full judicial persecution of the Roman Empire and
proclaim their belief in a risen Christ.

Historians of Roman and Jewish law have argued at length about the
details of Jesus's trial - and just how historical the Gospel accounts are.

Anyone who believes in the truth must heed the fine points that such
scholars unearth. But at this distance of time, there is never going to
be historical evidence one way or the other that could dissolve or
sustain faith.

Of course, only hard evidence will satisfy the secularists, but over
time and after repeated readings of the story, I've been convinced
without it.

And in contrast to those ephemeral pundits of today, I have as my
companions in belief such Christians as Dostoevsky, T. S. Eliot, Samuel
Johnson and all the saints, known and unknown, throughout the ages.

When that great saint Thomas More, Chancellor of England, was on trial
for his life for daring to defy Henry VIII, one of his prosecutors asked
him if it did not worry him that he was standing out against all the
bishops of England.

He replied: 'My lord, for one bishop of your opinion, I have a hundred
saints of mine.'

Now, I think of that exchange and of his bravery in proclaiming his
faith. Our bishops and theologians, frightened as they have been by the
pounding of secularist guns, need that kind of bravery more than ever.

Sadly, they have all but accepted that only stupid people actually
believe in Christianity, and that the few intelligent people left in the
churches are there only for the music or believe it all in some symbolic
or contorted way which, when examined, turns out not to be belief after all.

As a matter of fact, I am sure the opposite is the case and that
materialist atheism is not merely an arid creed, but totally irrational.

Materialist atheism says we are just a collection of chemicals. It has
no answer whatsoever to the question of how we should be capable of love
or heroism or poetry if we are simply animated pieces of meat.

The Resurrection, which proclaims that matter and spirit are
mysteriously conjoined, is the ultimate key to who we are. It confronts
us with an extraordinarily haunting story.

J. S. Bach believed the story, and set it to music. Most of the greatest
writers and thinkers of the past 1,500 years have believed it.

But an even stronger argument is the way that Christian faith transforms
individual lives - the lives of the men and women with whom you mingle
on a daily basis, the man, woman or child next to you in church tomorrow
morning.

MailOnline

Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/



On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:02:11 +1000, "Barry" <comingsoon@home

This was written by Chad Docterman, yet it mirrors my thoughts very
closely.

Why the Christian God is Impossible
Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth. This
assumption is false, not only because evidence for the existence of this
presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very
nature Christians attribute to this God is self contradictory.

Proving a universal negative

Many Christians, as well as atheists, claim that it is impossible to prove a
universal negative. For example, while we may not have evidence that
unicorns or dragons exist, we cannot prove that they do not exist. Unless we
have a complete knowledge of the universe, we must admit the possibility
that somewhere in the universe, there might be such creatures.

But the claim that omniscience is needed to prove a universal negative
presumes that the concept which we are discussing is logically coherent. If
the attributes which we assign to a hypothetical object or being are self
contradictory, then we can conclude that it cannot exist, and therefore does
not exist. I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove that
cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually exclusive attributes
which make their existence impossible. A cube, by definition, has 8 corners,
while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible --
they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object.

I intend to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh,
like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to
demonstrate that Yahweh's existence is an impossibility.

Defining YHWH

Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He
is eternal, all powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of
nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all good, all
loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the
emotions a human does. He is all knowing. He sees everything past and
future.

God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him,
brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must
suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the
opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be
rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they
must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this
forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

These attributes of God are related by the Bible, which Christians believe
to be the perfect and true Word of God.

One verse which many Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are
fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely
incompatible, and reveal the impossibility of all of them being held
simultaneously by the same being. There is no foolishness in denying the
impossible. Foolishness is worshipping an impossible God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perfection seeks even more perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God
was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and
compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete -- it
needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing
the elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a
difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect,
there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he
desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing
except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perfection begets imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this
perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation,
since they were created in God's image and had the ability to make
decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing
to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone
once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, yet this "perfect"
God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the
"perfect" humans.

The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot make
itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is
perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have
created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans
is impossible.

The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that
a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish
to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience
love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and
introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no
control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on
the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the
assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could
make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then
he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience
happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will
never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy,
whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates
beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness,
God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to
choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect
decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should
likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have
freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect
decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves
the supposed perfection of its creator.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All good God knowingly creates future suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which
humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He
heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would
have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the
Bible says this very thing), and surely this all compassionate deity would
have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which
many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly
compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer
is impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Infinite punishment for finite sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created
to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offence
does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect
humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is
infinitely unjust. The absurdity of this infinite punishment appears even
greater when we consider that the ultimate source of the human's
imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences
his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belief more important than action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who
have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who
have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they
had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all
of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.
It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their
fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of
Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs
rather than his actions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perfection's imperfect revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to
humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of
this God to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which
he is ultimately responsible! The all powerful God could have, by a mere act
of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead,
in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of
books called the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has
prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this
imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man,
translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No
two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean,
since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigma. And
yet the perfect God expects the imperfect humans to understand this
paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us.
Surely the all wise and all powerful God would have known that it would have
been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than
to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and
botched interpretations of man.

Contradictory justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its
imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own
imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just
God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of
their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of
one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh
who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to
punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same
Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect
Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned,
burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of
justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate
hands of Yahweh.

Contradictory history

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and
compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's
wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus'
earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a
few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot
confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral
and spiritual matters?

Unfulfilled prophecy

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it
with Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which
Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The sign given by
Isaiah to King Ahaz was meant to assure him that his enemies King Rezin and
King Remaliah would be defeated. The prophecy was fulfilled in the very next
chapter. Yet Matthew 1 not only misinterprets the word for "maiden" as
"virgin," but claims that this already fulfilled prophecy is fulfilled by
the virgin birth of Jesus!

The fulfilment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine
inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose
intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent
absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will
not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence
against them.

The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the
supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A
perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Omniscient changes the future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who
is all powerful and free willed is impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Omniscient is surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God
experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and
happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man
who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the
emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously
been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing
is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no
gained knowledge to which he may react emotionally.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we
cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans
experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An
omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is
impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence,
of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and free thinking individual can
accept the existence of a being whose nature is as contradictory as that of
Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of
Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink
unicorns.

While believers may find comfort in being faithful to impossibilities, there
is no greater satisfaction than a clear mind. You may choose to serve an
impossible God. I will choose reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atheist Soapbox, Chad Docterman


On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:12:12 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

I agree with Hugh Jackman, you can't really accuse him of savage
indifference to Internet based religious and sexual vilification by
Australians of Dolf Boek in the public affection he shows to his
children, but how dare the media, at the time of his Australian movie
release of 2009.4.29, reduce his sexuality to a mundane biographical
detail--as evocative question on his physical enjoyment of males over
females and whether as he claims, such a choice by him isn't at all
dissimilar to a question of appetite over blondes or brunettes or
reading an auto-biography over fiction as your preference in books

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/automata.html

Barry <comingsoon@home>

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:22:48 +1000, "Barry" <comingsoon@home

"dolf" <...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

You tell 'em Dolt!


On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:14:02 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

The legal claim against you will commence shortly...

another letter to Microsoft in 3 weeks...

Barry <comingsoon@home>

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT), cgraus <...@gmail.com

Sounds like your lawyer drives a nice car.....

On Apr 30, 3:14 am, dolf <...@hotmail.com

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:43:47 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

Haven't advised the lawyers of the latest philosophical argumentation.

Arriving at an appropriate basis for that argumentation takes time.

Benedict said Jesus, like a shepherd, gave guidance to his flock. "What
great compassion he must feel in our own time too – on account of all
the endless talk that people hide behind, while in reality they are
totally confused. Where must we go? What are the values by which we can
order our lives? The values by which we can educate our young, without
giving them norms they may be unable to resist, or demanding of them
things that perhaps should not be imposed upon them?" the pope said.

A motif of life overcoming difficult trials figured in Benedict's
earlier Good Friday homily, as he sought to encourage survivors of
Italy's devastating quake to cling to hope and take solace in Easter's
joy. The temblor in the central Apennine mountain region of Abruzzo
claimed at least 293 lives and left 40,000 people homeless." [Frances
D'Emilio, Pope carries Easter candle in Vatican basilica, Journal
Gazette And Times-Courier 2009.4.11 2045 hours CDT]

Although the ecclesiastical Easter 2009 comments by Cardinal George Pell
in conjunction with Pope Benedict, deploy similar semantics as
figurative idioms are 'Not good science'. Pell's AIDS-condom link is not
being particular in a disease spread by hypostatic union, are oppressive
of the autonomic right under the State: "From the beginning,
Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the "Logos," as
the religion according to reason.

So when the Belgium’s ambassador to the Holy See lodged a formal protest
at the ridiculousness of the Papal statements on condom effectiveness as
AIDS prevention on Wednesday 2009.4.15, prompting the Vatican
Secretariat to issue its tough statement denouncing the Belgian vote.

The Vatican deplored "the fact that a parliamentary assembly should have
thought it appropriate to criticize the Holy Father on the basis of an
isolated extract from an interview, separated from its context."

It said Benedict’s remarks to reporters had been "used by some groups
with a clear intent to intimidate, as if to dissuade the pope from
expressing himself on certain themes of obvious moral relevance and from
teaching the church’s doctrine." [Additional reporting 2009.4.18 by
Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer]

cgraus <...@gmail.com>

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:43:09 +1000, "Barry" <comingsoon@home

From: powe...@cs.com (PowerScheduler)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: How I came to disbelieve

I have just found this newsgroup. Let me introduce myself...
I grew up with religion. I used to believe in God, but I no longer do. I'm
not overly intellectual, though I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent.
I'm not into science, in fact I'd rather just sit and wonder about things,
rather than actually figure them out!
Here is how I came to change my belief system.
I used to think that God watched over me, helped me, was there if I asked
and
all that. I didn't belong to any religion, though I was raised in the
Baptist
Church.

My 11 year old daughter was raped. I started seriously questioning my
beliefs
about God after that one. How could a God allow this to happen? I drove
myself absolutely nuts with trying to figure out what I had done wrong, or
not
done right enough to have this happen. People told me my daughter suffered
because God gave people free will and sometimes we have to pay the price for
someone else's free will. Stupid stuff like that. I still believed in God
though.

Then my husband had a psychotic break. He was diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia. I eventually divorced him, after a long time in hell
(yep..right here on earth!), trying to deal with his illness.

That really got me. If my thoughts, feelings, beliefs originate in my mind,
what is my mind? Well..it's nothing but a glorified piece of meat with some
chemicals and electrical charges thrown in (I think anyways...like I said,
I'm
no scientist!). I watched as my husband's brain convinced him of all kinds
of
things. I watched his thoughts, feelings and beliefs change to the point I
didn't even know him anymore. Then the doctors added some more chemicals
and
it got a little better.

My beliefs, thoughts, feelings...all that I am is so fragile. It's so
changable! It could all be altered forever in a heartbeat...ever know
anyone
with a major head injury? So what of my belief in God? If my belief in God
could be wiped out so easily....where did that leave the devine being?
Non-existent? unimaginable? I would go to hell simply because I got some
screwed up chemicals that made me not believe or know anymore? It didn't
make
sense.

I started thinking....for myself...and found that I could no longer buy it
all.
I can see how a "god" might be useful to some people...it can provide a
feeling of security, a feeling of control over life. It can help people to
feel safe, but it can also help them to feel guilt, shame, unhappiness, a
sense
of failure. I can see how it all works, but I just can't buy it anymore.

I have seen the truth and I can't go back.

I've been sort of amazed by the things people say to me about my new
beliefs.
I pretty much just keep my mouth shut now...they tell me I'm just blaming
god
for what has happened in my life...my daughter and my husband. Well...if
there
was a God...shouldn't I blame it??? I don't know..I'm sure you all have
heard
it all too. It gets old and it gets hard to take because now I can see the
box
that these people are in, but they do not have the courage, the insight, the
whatever to get out of it. Of course, neither did I until circumstances
were
so very painful for me I either had to change my beliefs or go crazy myself.
I
do not try to challenge them...I can understand if they are not ready to let
go
of god yet, but they do not give me the same respect.
Oh well...they have not walked in my shoes and that's ok.
I don't know. Since I quit believing in God, my life is better. I have
been
able to make better choices, because I know they have no mystical
implications.
I can do what is best for me, because I'm not trying to please some
mysterious
being. I feel better than I ever have...and I am much less judgmental of
others than I ever have been. I am happier, more compassionate, just a
better
human being, because I know this is all we get. My life has plenty of
meaning.
The only way I will go on is by leaving what I have of myself. Through my
children, the people I help or befriend, a lasting impact on others. Of
course, all that will be gone within a couple generations of my death, but I
still find great satisfaction from attempting to leave the world a little
bit
better for me having been in it. That's meaning enough for me.
I'm sure someone will tell me I feel better because I'm being lured by
satanic
forces or something...but whatever! This is the truth and there's no going
back. I know what I know and I can't go back to the imaginary comfort of a
God
that doesn't exist.
I understand that life just happens. Some people are mean and hurt others.
Sometimes things go wrong and people suffer. That's just the way it is. I
find much more comfort in that than thinking that some god has some demented
plan for all this!
Well...this is plenty long enough! It is nice to find others who think like
I
do, even if maybe we came to be here by different paths. I will be
reading....


On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:12:56 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

I agree with Hugh Jackman, you can't really accuse him of savage
indifference to Internet based religious and sexual vilification by
Australians of Dolf Boek in the public affection he shows to his
children, but how dare the media, at the time of his Australian movie
release of 2009.4.29, reduce his sexuality to a mundane biographical
detail--as evocative question on his physical enjoyment of males over
females and whether as he claims, such a choice by him isn't at all
dissimilar to a question of appetite over blondes or brunettes or
reading an auto-biography over fiction as your preference in books

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/automata.html

Barry <comingsoon@home>

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:41:55 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

(ru) dolf: "Well yes, we could say that there is a little of this
Nicole's grasping photos of her new born and a contrast to Sydney born
and bred Hugh Jackman's wolverine super-hero character {Male Idea: #461
as #1 #10 #400 #50: Very extended, lasting; constant; continuity,
constancy, strength; firm, durable; mighty ones, nobles; rocks} and his
early days as a grease monkey at Wahroonga Shell, that a comparison
could be drawn with Meryl Streep's character and pious portrayal in a
'dingos got my baby.'

Then there is the aspect that her own name (Streep) is testimony to
Nicole and Keith's wedding of 25 June 2006 having a temporal (steeping)
connection with the Category of Understanding #321 {Female Idea: #321 as
#1 #10 #300 #10 n. Manly #1 #20 #300 Coil up; roll up #1 #300 #20 To
bind, to knit together #1 #300 #20 String, (of pearls); testicle, sexual
use of testicle}.

I've heard stranger things in the press: On 2009.4.7 it was reported by
Peter Michael of the Courier Mail, that "A castaway cattle dog has been
reunited with her owners after surviving four months on a tropical north
Queensland island eating goats and koalas.

In a miraculous tale of survival, owner Jan Griffith said the family pet
and 'indoor' dog was making world headlines after her emotional homecoming.

"People are just like 'wow'," Ms Griffith, of Mackay, said yesterday.

"We wish she could talk, we really do." [ref: Courier Mail 7 April 2009]"

(ru) dolf: "I agree with Hugh Jackman, you can't really accuse him of
savage indifference to Internet based religious and sexual vilification
by Australians of Dolf Boek in the public affection he shows to his
children, but how dare the media, at the time of his Australian movie
release of 2009.4.29, reduce his sexuality to a mundane biographical
detail--as evocative question on his physical enjoyment of males over
females and whether as he claims, such a choice by him isn't at all
dissimilar to a question of appetite over blonds or brunettes or reading
an auto-biography over fiction as your preference in books."

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/automata.html

Barry <comingsoon@home

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT), cgraus <...@gmail.com

On Apr 28, 6:43 pm, "Barry" <comingsoon@home
I'm very sorry for all that you've been through, especially for your
daughter ( I guess because I have a daughter myself ). I'm not sure
what I'd do if that happened in my life, if I'd be able to contain
myself from seeking some sort of revenge on her behalf. I am certain
it would not interfere with my faith, simply because my faith is based
on far more than an opinion on the existence of God, it's based on my
experience of Him. I guess your experiences have made you aware of
how fragile your faith was, and it has therefore broken. Perhaps one
day you will encounter true Christianity and find true faith in your
life. Either way, I am glad to hear you find that you have meaning in
your life, I assume this means you've been able to build a future for
yourself out of the bad situations that have happened in your past.

Regarding your comments on mental illness, the brain is an organ, just
like the heart, or lungs. It can get sick, and it's processes can be
interfered with. That really proves nothing about if there is a God
or not.

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:49:36 -0700 (PDT), theo <...@bekkers.com.au

On Apr 29, 9:09 am, cgraus <...@gmail.com

Is that really you Chris? No time no hear. How have you been?

Theo

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:31:42 +1000, **Rowland Croucher** <rccroucher@contactemailonwebsite

And are you still in Tasmania?

Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/


On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:49:32 +1000, "Barry" <comingsoon@home

We Are Atheists Because...

There is no proof of the existence of god.
There is no need of, or use for, a god.
A good god would be useless if were not powerful. A powerful god would not
deserve worship if he were not good. There is no all powerful good god;
otherwise there would be no imperfection.
If this is the best world god can make, the stories of Heaven must be lies.
History shows that godism is accompanied by ignorance and superstition.
There has never been such intolerance and persecution as godists have
practiced.
Godism had to be fought when humankind made its successive steps toward
science, liberty, and reform. Godism was invented in the earliest days of
mankind's ignorance. It is incredible that primitive humans guessed wrongly
about everything else, but discovered the truth about the origin of life.
Everything about which science has discovered the origin was claimed
previously to have been the work of a god.
Godism recedes when a new fact is discovered. No new discovery ever supports
a theistic explanation of anything. All revelation proves, on investigation,
to be human, and generally fraudulent.
Godism is consistent with crime, cruelty, envy, hatred, malice, and
uncharitableness.

Atheism Teaches That...

There is no heavenly father.
Humankind must protect the orphans and foundlings, or they will not be
protected.
There is no god to answer prayer. Man must hear and help man.
There is no hell.
We have no vindictive god or devil to fear or imitate.
There is no atonement or salvation by faith. We must face the consequences
of our acts.
There is no beneficent or malevolent intent in nature. Life is a struggle
against preventable and upreventable evils.
The cooperation of humankind is the only hope of the world. There is no
chance after death to "do our bit." We must do it now or never.
There is no divine guardian of truth, goodness, beauty, and liberty. These
are attributes of humankind. We must defend them or they will perish from
the earth.


On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT), cgraus <...@gmail.com

On Apr 28, 6:49 pm, "Barry" <comingsoon@home
I find these sort of word games fascinating. Of course, they prove
nothing. It is true that much intolerance has existed in the name of
God, but that is as much God's fault, as Pauline Hanson was the fault
of the liberal party.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:12:24 GMT, dolf <...@hotmail.com

I agree with Hugh Jackman, you can't really accuse him of savage
indifference to Internet based religious and sexual vilification by
Australians of Dolf Boek in the public affection he shows to his
children, but how dare the media, at the time of his Australian movie
release of 2009.4.29, reduce his sexuality to a mundane biographical
detail--as evocative question on his physical enjoyment of males over
females and whether as he claims, such a choice by him isn't at all
dissimilar to a question of appetite over blondes or brunettes or
reading an auto-biography over fiction as your preference in books

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/automata.html

Barry <comingsoon@home>

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:03:42 -0700 (PDT), cgraus <...@gmail.com

Hi Rowland. You're still posting here ? Don't you have anything
better to do ? :P

If anything, at first glance, this place is even more depressing and
even less interested in Christ than it was when I last posted, perhaps
a decade ago.

Christian Graus

Discussion Title: A N Wilson: Why I Believe Again
Title Keywords: Wilson:  Believe  Again