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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 03:14:08 -0700 (PDT), wolfagain <...@provide.net
On Jul 7, 3:06 am, Taylor <...@gmail.com
little minds have no other option. Wonder if the parents of the boys
he sleep with will be watching???!
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:05:09 -0700 (PDT), Seminole <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 6:14 am, wolfagain <...@provide.net
Why they interrupt regular programming for a memorial to a junkie pop
star I will never comprehend.
If someone like this receives such honors, what does it say about our
society?
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:09:00 -0700 (PDT), Rena <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 7:05 am, Seminole <...@gmail.com
Ask the thousands of families in California who have lost their homes
and live in tents!
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Anonymous Wrote:
"If someone like this receives such honors, what does it say about our
society?"
Words that cannot be spoken in "polite company". They didn't do it for
Elvis or John Lennon. They didn't do it for anyone I can think of that
was of national importance other than a former president or head of
state. To what does it reduce those solemn occasions? We certainly
aren't lacking substantial proof that this country is going to hell in a
handbasket, this is just more evidence IMO. But then, of the three who
died close together (Ed McMahon, Farah, and MJ) only his "popness"
managed to interrupt congress for a moment of silence. And only his
family received a personal phone call from the POTUS. That right there
is enough for me.
Candy
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:33:00 -0500, "Pat Wadley" <...@sbcglobal.net
"CM 2" <...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
I wonder how much of it was "real" and how much was media hype which
infected the general populace?
In addition, what exactly did Michael Jackson ever do?
Did he cure cancer? Don't think so.
Did he save someone's life? No, don't think so.
Did he bring peace to the Mideast? Did he build hospitals? Fund medical
research? Build homes for the homeless? What, exactly did he do?
When Michael DeBakey died no one noted his passing. Yes, his obit was on
line and yes, his obit made the papers, but no one held a memorial service;
no one talked about the hundreds of people who are alive due to his research
and work, there were no "memorial" retrospectives on CNN or CSPAN or MSNBC
or anywhere. Just an obit. And he saved countless lives.
True heroes are ignored and degraded. And actors are given forums.
my2cents
p
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:28:05 -0500, Jack Newhouse <...@charter.net
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:33:00 -0500, "Pat Wadley" <...@sbcglobal.netwrote:
Obviously Boogerbear, you didn't watch the memorial. They explained
all of what he did there for a couple of hours.
Well, you think wrong you silly racist sapsucker!
Michael Jackson is in the Guiness Book of Records for donating to more
charities than any other WHITE person in the history of planet Earth.
Even more so than Oprah has done. Just because you are ignorant and
don't follow closely what he has been about doesn't mean that he was
on your trashy level of existence. He has helped more White people
than Elvis and all the other racist Caucasians put together. Capisce?
Yes his music brought peace to the Middle East. What in the Hell do
critters like you all watch on television? Certainly not worldnews.
Did you see the GROWN Sheiks in full dress dancing to Michael Jacksons
music?
Saudi dancing Tribute to Michael Jackson
By Will I Are
http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/06/saudi-tribute-to-michael-jackson.html
Bahraini sheik who had legal dispute with Michael Jackson saddened by
his death
http://blog.taragana.com/e/2009/06/27/bahraini-sheik-who-had-legal-dispute-with -michael-jackson-saddened-by-his-death-11984/
Did Midlle Eastern ever dance to anything The two Bush presidents did?
Or
clinton? Or Reagan? NO! Other than dancing as they tried to get out of
the way of the horrific death and destruction that rained down upon
them because of our leaders ordering pilots to bomb Nations that had
nothing to do with 911, and who had previously admired us. White
people for the most part are about killing nonwhite people
financially, spiritually, psychologically, and physically.
Michael Jackson was about love, peace, and harmony amongst all the
world regardless of skin color, religion, or ethnicity. Our past
presidents were midgets next to Michael Jackson. Their solution to
everyone who disagreed with the astonishly crazy ideas our leaders
demanded was to attack and kill.
Did he build hospitals? Fund medical
Did Elvis do any of those things? did Farrah Fawcett? She had Blonde
thick hair and Blue eyes. She started in one fictional show.
So what
did she do in REAL life? Was she for civil rights of African
Americans? Did she have close Black friends? Michael Jackson had close
friends of every color you can imagine.
I don't know about thathospital funding medical point. Why don't you
show us you have some good computer skill by going to http://www.google.com
and asking those questions there. Then show us what you find instead
of babbling out a lot of nonsense about someone you really don't know.
I have never heard of this fellow. So knowing how to use my computer
unlike many of you all I did a quick Google search on him and found
that he seemed to be an amazing fellow as this female says.
If everything is true about what he did, then yes, he should have been
given a large sendoff. Maybe he was. I don't remember obits that far
back.
He does seem like a great man, but his death just didn't impact the
world in such a public way as Michael Jacksons did. However his
inventions have probably saved the lives of millions of people, and I
would have tons of respect for this fellow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._DeBakey
I agree with you to a point. America has a mentall illness about
celebrities. I'm sick and tired of seeing movie stars become
presidents and congress people. I also don't like seeing comedians
like Al Franken become senators.
America has million of people of all colors who are far better
educated in the areas that are important to being a good politician
than the credentials that MOST movie stars and comedians bring to the
table. I don't like foreigners whose father was a Nazi being voted
into the Governors position in California.
This clown got that position becasue he married a Shriver-Kennedy and
because he was the most violent person in the MAKE BELIEVE TERMINATOR
MOVIES. tHE AVERAGE PERSON on this forum could kick Arnolds behing in
a fair fist fight, but he has been made to loo superhuman by all of
the hollywood trickery used to make movies. Stop voting for FAKES1 The
country will never be anything until you do that.
We now have the real deal in President Obama. I believe he and his
team can turn the country around and put it on the right road. If the
Republican dig up dirt and make him ineffective, and they take over
again, American will soon be destroyed from within and it will deserve
that punishement because of the stupidity of Caucasians.
Need I say more?
http://antiterrorist.r8.org
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:01:08 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Pat Wadley:
Pat, if you said that with a straight face, have you been under a rock
for the last 40 years?
He was an ENTERTAINER. Entertainers don't cure cancer, they generally
don't save people's lives (in the usual ways), and they aren't
responsible for bringing peace to areas of the world that have been
fighting since the beginning of time.
NONE of the great entertainers of all time have done any of those
things, but we still consider them great entertainers!
That doesn't mean that we can't acknowledge them when their talent is
great and they share it with the world in extraordinary ways as
Michael Jackson did. After contributing between $300-500 million to
charities, he may indeed have built a hospital or funded some medical
programs, and yes, it's safe to say some of that money DID go to
provide food and shelter for people in areas of the world that needed
it.
The work of an entertainer generally isn't considered as important or
significant as someone who might, as you mentioned, find a cure for
cancer. But that doesn't mean their achievements aren't noteworthy.
OBVIOUSLY, Michael Jackson's work as a singer, musician, dancer,
entertainer AND as a human being had a profound affect on more than a
handful of people, including many artists who followed him into the
music/entertainment industry. You don't have to like him -- surely not
everyone was a fan. But questions like, "what did he ever do?" and
Hilda's claim that all the fuss is "over ONE album" ... are simply
foolish.
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:36:27 -0500, "JC" <...@austin.rr.com
"Pat Wadley" <...@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
I completely agree, but I find it strange how much vitriol (not necessarily
from you, Pat, just using your post as a jumping off point) is directed at
Michael Jackson for this. MJ is not the one to blame for the wall-to-wall
coverage over the past two weeks. The media is to blame and the public is to
blame.
We live in a world now where "news" is a commodity. It isn't something that
is reported upon as it happens; it is something that is created, made,
molded, packaged, marketed & sold to the public. And it isn't even "news" as
we used to know it (or as I studied it when I got a degree in journalism).
It is entertainment. It is punditry. It is an incestuous breeding ground of
so-called "experts" who move from show to show to show to speak on subjects
of which they have a tenuous grasp at best.
MJ's passing and contributions to society deserve coverage (as does his
memorial in my view), but as always, as ALWAYS, the media goes overboard.
That's not his fault though. Bashing him to prove how little coverage he
deserves seems pointless and cruel. Someone else mentioned that this type of
coverage wasn't rolled out for Elvis or John Lennon, but surely he/she knows
that is only because they died before the media culture devolved to its
current state. Absolutely they would receive the same type of coverage if
they were alive (and then died) today.
But the bottom line: We wouldn't have wall-to-wall coverage of MJ if the
public didn't watch it. If CNN's ratings bottomed out every time they did an
MJ story, guess what? They wouldn't do MJ stories. If no one was interested
in watching the MJ memorial, it wouldn't have been shown.
So let's blame ourselves and each other! What better legacy could MJ leave!
:)
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:36:39 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Seminole" <...@gmail.comnews:47b151d0-fb70-4787-aef5-
Why they make the state of California pay for it is even more
incomprehensible.
It says we idol worship people who had a few years of musical brilliance and
several decades of cheerful public ridicule. Maybe everyone is just guilty
for being fascinated by his bizarre face all these years.
--S.
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:05:34 GMT, David Johnston <...@block.net
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 01:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Taylor
<...@gmail.com
You want to see what happens when an event like this happens without
police presence and sanitation?
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:52:46 -0700, "Jofirey" <...@sbcglobal.net
"David Johnston" <...@4ax.com...
My thoughts exactly. It is really just a part of the cost of doing
business in a city like LA. I know its their job, but it had to be
hard for some of those people to get up and go to work today.
Jo
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:55:35 -0500, Leanna <...@gmail.com
For a CHILD MOLESTER???????????????????????????
Oh, My God!
Remember, the photos of his genitalia matched the accusing child's
description perfectly. This fact just cannot be argued away!
You can get away with ANYTHING, if you're rich and/or famous enough.
What he did to children flushed every good thing that he ever did
straight down the toilet!!!!!!
This just rubs it right in my face that children like I once was need
not ever hope for real justice, or even to be believed, if they tell any
adult, even one who loves them.
This adulation for a rapist really makes my post-traumatic stress
disorder go nuts. The last week or so has been a trip down Memory Lane,
straight from hell. Flashbacks to the funeral of the man who molested
me, being praised to the skies, have been haunting me. If it weren't for
needing to support my family, I would have been anywhere else.
If you're a fan, leave me alone. A present or former abused child is the
only person who can understand, as Jackson's exoneration proved for all
time. Anyone who'd defend MJ to me utterly lacks empathy. Please have
the compassion to refrain from minimizing or belittling or rendering
irrelevant the issue of his being morally responsible vs. his being
found legally not guilty. The photos matched. That trumps everything
else. Every bit of "suffering" he "endured" was generated by his own
actions. He finally paid the consequences of his behavior. It just
wasn't enough!
Don't watch. Go somewhere wonderful with your kids!!!
Leanna
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:31:11 -0500, whodunit <...@invalid.invalid
{{Hugs}}
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:39:05 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article <...@leanna57.eternal-september.org
I always make it a point to call and complain to my local (Philadelphia) ABC
affiliate when they preempt AMC for the funerals of cops and Catholic
religious figures. Not that I have anything against cops and Catholic
religious figures: but I do feel that people who were close enough to the
dead to care are ALREADY AT THE FUNERAL, and also, if they are going to make
Catholic authority figures' funerals into state affairs, they have to
similarly honor Jewish authority figures, Muslim ones, B'ahai, Wiccan, etc.
etc. Much as Philadelphia would like to think it, Catholicism is not the
official religion of the metro area.
So you can bet your boots that I'm going to call today and complain about
them preempting AMC for the funeral of a child molesting pop star.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 06:05:48 -0700 (PDT), Taylor <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 8:39 am, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
Yeah. A fallen cop or firefighter is too far. Perhaps the death of a
sitting mayor is an acceptable rarity.
Yeah, I don't get it. Okay. So your son sleeps over at Dennis Weaver's
house. He returns and can give a *perfect* description of Weaver's
genitalia area (just like MJ's 2nd accuser Gavin Arvizo did). So now
imagine your son goes to his baseball coach's house for a sleepover w/
the same results (if too unrealistic, the father of his best friend).
What do you do? Just let it slide? Then WHY give a "quirky" adult
singer who has an unhealthy interest in boys a free pass? I'd say the
same thing if it were Juice Newton having sleepovers.
Taylor (Yes, I *do* realize Dennis Weaver is dead, so seeing his penis
would be next to impossible; a good example of a "man's man" you
wouldn't suspect of child molestation.)
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:14:14 -0700 (PDT), Lollie <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 9:05 am, Taylor <...@gmail.com
JEALOUS?????????????
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:08:01 -0700 (PDT), Rena <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 8:39 am, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
Thanks for the suggestion. I emailed my local CBS station and they
already answered that it wasn't their choice to make. They are
obligated to show the network feed. At least it's only ATWT that's
preempted and not all of the soaps.
Hoping and praying for the ongoing good health of the Pope. ;)
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:37:29 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com
Yeah, and I just learned from the local ABC that they're not doing a 2AM
showing of AMC, either: it's just preempted entirely until tomorrow.
And I do want to make it clear that I think it's a terrible and sad thing
when someone whose livelihood is service to the community -- a cop, a
firefighter -- dies in the line of duty. But it's still over-the-top, in my
opinion, to preempt hours of television to show their funerals! It's fairly
insane, I think. My hunch is that it's a very small percentage of folks who
aren't at the funerals who watch those, and they're probably people who would
stay planted on the couch if they were running a test pattern. <g
Ha! Yeah, me too! ;-)
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:27:18 -0700 (PDT), Jim <...@aol.com
On Jul 7, 4:55�am, Leanna <...@gmail.com
Why did the parents of the child that brought Jackson to trial allow
their son to stay with Jackson knowing full well of the previous
accusation? If indeed Jackson were guilty then the parents were
guilty as well for putting their child in that situation knowing what
might happen.
The jury apparently didn't believe them. And if Jackson got off
because he's rich and famous, tell that to OJ & Phil Spector now in
prison. Jackson was one weird dude but I don't believe sex of any kind
played apart in his life. He couldn't even supply sperm for the
surrogate.
Jim
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:05:17 -0700 (PDT), MsLiz <...@charter.net
On Jul 7, 6:55 am, Leanna <...@gmail.com
((((hugs))))))
MsLiz
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:13:00 -0700 (PDT), MsLiz <...@charter.net
On Jul 7, 3:06 am, Taylor <...@gmail.comMy sweet son offered to play video games instead of me watching TV and
I accepted.
Dang, even Hardball is preempted. I am going to sleep.
First I will pray for the child molestation victims who have had to
watch this travesty.
MsLiz
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:38:55 -0400, "D.M. Stillwood" <...@earthlink.net
WHO THE F----- ARE ALL THESE CROSSPOSTERS??? I wish they would go back to
ratsa and while they're at it, keep their lousy ABC actors there so they
will stop invading CBS soaps!
D. (grrrrrrrrr.......)
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 03:34:37 -0700 (PDT), Taylor <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 12:38 pm, "D.M. Stillwood" <...@earthlink.net
Hey, hey, hey. At least (((WE))) don't have a soap opera on (((OUR)))
network that's getting axed. You CBS soap gutternsipes. :-p
jk
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:31:13 -0400, "alia robinson" <...@gmail.com
"Taylor" <...@c9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 7, 12:38 pm, "D.M. Stillwood" <...@earthlink.net
Hey, hey, hey. At least (((WE))) don't have a soap opera on (((OUR)))
network that's getting axed. You CBS soap gutternsipes. :-p
jk
You may not be in the mood to kid at all. your time will come on abc. soaps
are dying, just give them time. you want to be mad at something taking soaps
away, blame the OJ trial. the MJ memorial is a blip on the radar.
Alia
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:06:02 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 11:31 am, "alia robinson" <...@gmail.com
And anyone who would brag about watching AMC, well...
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:53:31 -0400, "D.M. Stillwood" <...@earthlink.net
REALLY? Well, maybe you don't have one CURRENTLY on the bubble, but do we
have to mention the ones on ABC that have been axed in the last couple
decades? Hmmmm? Maybe if our PTB would stop hiring ABC also-rans (both in
front of the camera and behind), we wouldn't be in this situation. ATWT was
once the jewel in CBS's crown, and now it is a joke. Someone here (on
RATSC) recently posted something very illuminating about Chris Goutman and
how his allegiance to ABC has brought the soap down. While I think at first
it was his insistence on bringing in unemployed AW actors and moving the
whole kit 'n kaboodle down to Brooklyn (AW's old studio, very telling), in
the past few years it's been one ABC reject after another. Some have worked
themselves into the fibre of the show, but all you have to mention to a
long-time fan of ATWT is "Susan Batten," and to a long-time/current fan is
"Roger Howarth"--see what reaction you get! Luckily, we screamed so loudly
that they had to get rid of Batten pretty quickly (and a previously
wonderful character along with her); unfortunately, Howarth's fans from ABC
keep slobbering over how "wonderful" he is and what a "great actor," so
"sensitive" and "romantic," that we're stuck with him. And believe me, you
ABC fans are welcome to have him back. He ruins every scene he is in on
ATWT, along with every scene partner.
D.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 06:05:08 -0700 (PDT), Sheila <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 4:06 am, Taylor <...@gmail.com
you didn't whine for the Lakers but this is being paid for by rich
contributors. Don't you watch the news? Plus all the money that this
is bringing to the city. The only complainers are the media.
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:32:19 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com
That didn't pre-empt the soaps, but if it _had_, I sure would have complained
to my local ABC affiliate.
Nope. The city of Los Angeles is stuck for the bill for all the extra
services required by a crowd of this magnitude, including police, and standby
emergency services like fire and medical. The rent on the Staples Center is
the smallest part of the cost of this nonsense.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:55:39 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
"nonsense"? So a famous person isn't entitled to a befitting memorial
service?
Everyone is talking about the cost to the city. With the number of
people traveling to the city, has anyone thought about how much
revenue the event is bringing INTO the city?
Shirl
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:40:08 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com
Yes, "nonsense." Nonsense to devote a nearly two-week news cycle to the
death of one man who wrote some music. Of course he's entitled to a fitting
memorial service, with his family, friends, colleagues and fans there, but
why should _I_ have to be affected by it? Why should the entire country be
subject to cancelled television shows for an entertainer's funeral? The
nonsense is the insane fuss being made about it, not the fact that he's
having a memorial service. I don't think even Elvis's death got this kind of
coverage, but of course that's a function of the 24-hour cable news cycle,
which is obligated to over-cover everything in order to fill broadcast time.
I'm not a hater; I actually enjoy most of MJ's output, and being a huge Weird
Al fan I could never outright dismiss him because he's given Al such terrific
fodder. But I also am painfully aware that this was a man with a lot of
grave faults, who probably scarred more than a handful of children for life,
committed sex crimes, and will probably be the reason his kids need decades
of therapy. So I just don't understand why the media has to treat this like
the death of a great statesman or a brilliant scientist or a doctor who saved
lives. Heck, he was extremely entertaining, but nothing he wrote was of any
great consequence. It's not like he was Mozart. Cover the story, and _move
on_.
Probably not that much. My hunch is that most of the people who applied for
tickets (and by "most" I mean "more than 50%") are local.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:07:42 -0700, "Cheri" <...@newsguy.com
"Aisling Willow Grey" <...@fjordstone.com
+1, and no...Elvis never came close to this kind of ceremony,
however...there weren't all those cable news networks back then either.
People look for "ongoing events" these days, and the news media decides
which of these things will be events whether anyone is interested or not,
just look at the fiasco of Anna Nicole, or the ongoing JFK Jr. saga after
his plane crash. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!
Cheri
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:41:57 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
You don't. Someone forcing you to watch? Shut it off if you aren't
interested. Your regularly-watched shows are pre-empted? Aww. They're
pre-empted for a few days of basketball every March, too. There have
been other major events (subjective description, I realize) that took
over network television for a week or two. Everyone lived through it.
Watch if you want, don't if you don't want.
Whether YOU were affected by Michael Jackson or not, obviously many,
MANY people were. Pretty disrespectful and insensitive of those who
held him in such high esteem -- and there ARE many, MANY credible
people who still held him in very high esteem -- to call the coverage
"nonsense". But hey, takes all kinds.
No, he wasn't Mozart, and no he wasn't a brilliant scientist or
doctor. He was, as described by some of the industry's heaviest
hitters, a brilliant entertainer, despite his faults and despite the
accusations which may or may not have been true. Whether or not a
brilliant entertainer is more or less deserving than a great statesman
or brilliant scientist or doctor is a matter of opinion. Obviously,
some feel his contribution was as great or the media wouldn't be
bothering. "Nothing of any great consequence"? LOL. A significant
number of people **with the credentials** to make such a judgment beg
to differ.
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:32:18 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 2:41 pm, Shirl <...@gmail.com
I was not a fan of MJ. THRILLER is the only one of his albums I ever
bought. But I am *so* glad to see this kind of attention paid to
someone in the music business, as opposed to sports or politics. And I
couldn't care less about the things of which he was accused, but never
convicted. Regardless of my opinion of him or his music, he *was* the
King of Pop, and I'm glad things got moved out of the way for his
memorial service.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:42:08 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
record hunter:
Same here, record hunter.
Of course everyone was not a fan, but IMO, what he achieved, his
enormous talent, and the impact he made can't be denied whether a
person was a fan or not.
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:13:49 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 4:42 pm, Shirl <...@gmail.com
Exactly. I watched a bit of the memorial service. I loved his brother
Jermaine singing "Smile," in particular, plus some of the speakers,
like MLK Jr.'s son and daughter, and Berry Gordy. MJ might not have
been to my taste exactly, but he is worthy of this tribute.
In a way, I wish Warren Zevon's funeral had drawn this kind of
attention, but in another way I'm glad it didn't. He probably
wouldn't've been as high in my particular musical firmament if I'd had
to share him with as many people as loved Michael Jackson.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
record hunter:
Yes, I thought he did a great job with that. I also loved Usher's
rendition of "Gone Too Soon" which I think is a beautiful, moving
song. I have been looking for the sheet music to it ever since Nancy
Grace used the song for Caylee Anthony...now it applies to Michael,
himself. Loved the photo, during Usher's singing, of Michael shaking
hands with Kermit.
Absolutely agree. Loved the personal stories -- Smokey Robinson's
story about his reaction when he heard MJ, as a 10-yr-old, singing one
of his songs about love gone bad; Magic's story about the bucket of
KFC; and Brooke's stories. His daughter, at the end, was gut-
wrenching.
Other than "Werewolves of London", I'm not familiar with his work.
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:27:38 -0700 (PDT), kittent <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 4:37 pm, Shirl <...@gmail.comI don't give a flying fig about either Michael Jackson OR having my
soap pre-empted on a day I wouldn't have been able to watch it anyway,
but zevon is so much more than werewolves of london. Check out
http://www.warrenzevon.com/
hugs,
kitten
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:57:10 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com
He was a great storyteller; a songwriter's songwriter.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:25:31 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 9:19 pm, record hunter <...@gmail.com
My favorite songs are "Carmelita," "Desperados under the Eaves,"
"Hasten down the Wind," and "The French Inhaler." You'll probably
recognize "Hasten," "Carmelita," and "Poor, Poor Pitiful Me" if you're
familiar with Linda Ronstadt.
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:04:16 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com
I love his version of "Poor, Poor Pitiful Me." I also like "I Was in the
House When the House Burned Down."
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Curious, record hunter ...
Do you like Randy Newman?
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:39:49 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 9:31 pm, Shirl <...@gmail.com
I guess I like his songs better when they're done by other people. My
favorite is probably "And I Think It's Going to Rain Today." Oh, and
he did this version of FAUST with Linda Ronstadt, in which she sings a
song called "Gainesville," which I absolutely love.
Others I like:
Sail Away
I Love LA
Every Man a King
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
record hunter:
*nods* He's surely not a singer, but I just love how his songs tell a
story, paint a picture, if you will. I'm not always in the mood for
his stuff, but when I am, I enjoy his whimsical, mostly "fun" style.
Reminds me of Kurt Cobain in a way, because although he wasn't what
you'd call a "brilliant" singer or musician, his songs also had a
certain kind of catchy appeal, particularly the Nirvana Unplugged
collection.
Shirl
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Anonymous Wrote:
reco...@gmail.com (record hunter)
wrote:
If they don't make a single out of Jennifer Hudson's song, they are
foolish, Foolish FOOLISH! From my years in the record business, (I
worked at Capitol when MJ was the hottest in the '80s) I have a pretty
good ear for hit singles. JH just blew me away with the song she sang.
I'm not even sure what the name of it was, but it has #1 single written
all over it.
Ravl
they need to do it now to capitalize on fresh.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
That was a nice one.
In matters of a non-Jacksonian nature, I'm refreshing my Bob Dylan LP
catalog, which has some holes in it, before he dies. Cheap today. Who
knows tomorrow?
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Anonymous Wrote:
reco...@gmail.com (record hunter)
wrote:
My husband is a HUGE Dylan fanatic. If you want to see what he's been up
to, go to a website called Expecting Rain. They list Dylan's set lists
from the night before.
Ravl
and, good luck on plugging those holes. The guy has a buttload of albums
out.
Not to mention, some pretty damn prophetic songs for OUR times.
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:41:18 -0700, Terry Pulliam Burd <...@meatloaf.net
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:22:07 -0700, rave...@webtv.net (ravelation)
fired up random neurons and synapses to opine:
The DH is also a huge Dylan fan. We've seen him in concert 3 times in
the last few years. Big props for starting on time, too. If he says
the concert's at 8, his butt is on stage at 8.
Terry Pulliam Burd
--
"And what manner of jackassery must we put up with today?" Danae
in "Non Sequitur"
To reply, replace "meatloaf" with "cox"
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:54:28 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@q11g2000yqi.googlegroups.com
You'd probably have a lower tolerance for this sort of thing if you lived in
the Philadelphia area. They bump the soaps pretty frequently, for things
like hour-long looks at street corners, the same view of a fire over and
over, a meter maid's scraped knee, etc. etc.
And obviously I don't have to watch, but it's absolutely correct that it
affects me. I work at home, and if I don't take a lunch break, I'm usually
working far too many hours without a break. All My Children is my daily
lunch break, and has been for the ten years I've been running my business
from home. So yes, it _did_ affect me, and it affects me every time the
local affiliate bumps the show for some narrow-interest item like this.
Bumping network television is different, because there is no expectation that
they're going to be there every week. We're all used to reruns, mid-season
filler shows, etc. But if it makes you feel any better, I hate sports
preemptions, too.
No, it's not disrespectful to them. It's putting things into perspective. I
don't think that an entertainer's memorial service, in its entirety, is news.
That's who was broadcasting this afternoon: the local ABC affiliate's news
department. News is telling us that the event is taking place. Wall-to-wall
coverage is not news. I think that, if you're judging the _news_, this is
indeed nonsense. And it's finding offense where none was intended to say
that my statements are disrespectful and insensitive to his fans. I hope his
biggest fans watched the entire thing on BET, MTV, and other _entertainment_
stations that had every business carrying every millisecond of the event.
But to force the general public to shift their daily routine -- by coopting
their news station -- for the funeral circus of a controversial and very
likely criminal popular entertainer is...nonsense. Over the top. IMHO.
His _music_ was _not_ of any great consequence. With MJ, it was the entire
package: the songs, the dancing, the videos. If you asked some other great
singer (insert your favorite here) to perform pretty much _any_ of his songs,
as a straight _song_ -- spotlight, voice, and piano only -- you'd find that
they really were not of any great consequence. Forgettable, even. But that
doesn't mean he didn't have a major impact on the music industry of the 20th
century, and that he wasn't a great entertainer. But he was _not_ some
fabulous songwriter. And I'm perfectly qualified to make that judgement.
As for why the media is "bothering," it's because he was a freak, and the
public loves nothing more than a freak show. You're fooling yourself to
think otherwise. Most of the stories don't leave it at "he was a great
entertainer." They all talk about his plastic surgery, his strange
marriages, the bizarre rumors surrounding him (Elephant Man bones, hyperbaric
chamber, how the children were conceived), the acquittal, the case where he
paid off the victim, the bizarre things he wore to court, the secret rooms at
Neverland, etc. etc. etc.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
I'm not a proponent of the hour-long looks at street corners, either,
and agree with you about that. However, I'd venture to guess that more
people tuned in to see the MJ memorial than were upset by missing
their daily soap.
We just have to agree to disagree about that.
IMO, it is absolutely disrespectful and insensitive to refer to
something that OBVIOUSLY means so much to so many people as
"nonsense".
The likelihood of MJ being "criminal" is no greater than the
likelihood that the accuser was an opportunist. There was a fair
amount of circumstantial evidence to support that as well.
Nobody said his greatest or only claim to fame was his songwriting,
although he did write some poignant songs/lyrics. Yes, as an
entertainer, he was a complete package, and as that, he absolutely
made a tremendous contribution/impact.
You make statements about how this is "nonsense" and how his music was
of no great consequence and *I* am fooling myself? LOL. Your soap
should be back on tomorrow and your suffering can end.
Shirl
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:05:52 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@m11g2000yqh.googlegroups.com
I'm fine with us not agreeing, but I do hope I was clear that I don't think
the _memorial_ is nonsense; just the 24-hour news cycle for nearly two weeks
leading up to _complete_ coverage of the event on news programs and
pre-empting normal programming on all but the most related channels/networks
(as I said, I wouldn't begrudge MTV or BET showing the whole thing, or even
VH1).
I'm a keen follower of what you might call true crime, so I have more than a
cursory knowledge of the materials in evidence in both cases. I didn't make
that comment lightly.
Absolutely agree. All the hip-hop artists saying that Michael helped pave
the way for them were correct. And, he pretty much _owned_ the music video
genre for a number of years. But I still think that most of the songs
post-Off the Wall were of little to no consequence. I guess my beef is with
the testimonials and news bytes where they're frothing at the mouth over him
being "one of the greatest musicians of all time." I'm fine with
"entertainer," but I really can't give him much credit as a songwriter. His
best stuff was largely co-written by ghost songwriters, anyway.
I'm hardly suffering; I just offered my opinion on a thread that someone else
started on this subject. And as you probed, I offered more. It's not like
I've been sitting stewing about this all day -- I'm too busy for that! And
yes, I honestly believe that _most_ of the people watching the wall-to-wall
coverage have a prurient interest in him as a freakish character. I think
the people who are moved by his music, and loved and respected the man, are
in the minority. They are still a HUGE amount of people, but I think that
this coverage-mania is mostly catering to (and because of) those looking on
at it as a freak show.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:32:37 -0700, "Cheri" <...@newsguy.com
"Aisling Willow Grey" <...@fjordstone.com
I'm not suffering either. I didn't watch it because I have no interest in it
whatsoever. Others do, that's fine, but we all have a right to our opinion,
and I'm glad you offered yours...which I happen to agree with.
Cheri
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:27:13 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
Aisling Willow Grey:
I've had a more than casual interest also and did not make my comments
lightly, either.
He was a huge factor in helping to open up MTV to more black artists,
and in fact, his video, Billie Jean, was dubbed as being the video
that "broke the color barrier. While his sole claim to fame was not
songwriting, his music absolutely WAS of great consequence to the
music industry and to other artists, let alone to fans.
Again, it isn't what music he created as much as what he DID with his
music, such as with MTV and also projects like the "We Are the World"
endeavor, which generated a ton of interest, participation, and hefty
profits that went to the USA for Africa Foundation.
I didn't "probe" other than with the initial "nonsense" question. It
was more a matter of disagreeing with your statements.
Shirl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:53:23 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
Well, on that, I think we have to give props to Bob Geldof and Midge Ure for
doing it first, with Band Aid. :-) Not to sell short Michael's
contribution to the problem of world hunger; just that I think people
sometimes forget that, before Band Aid, there wasn't such a thing as an
all-star charity single.
Whoa. I didn't mean "probe" in any sort of pejorative way. I meant: you
asked, I elaborated. That's all.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:55:49 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article <...@news.verizon.net
And before you correct me, I'll do it myself: you didn't exactly _ask_,
either. You just responded, and I continued the conversation. My point
being, I wouldn't have gone on if you hadn't responded. I felt like there
was a conversation happening there. I wasn't talking into a vacuum.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 03:39:05 -0700 (PDT), Taylor <...@gmail.com
On Jul 7, 3:54 pm, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
It's really ashame you guys don't get local stations from across the
country by default. Here, not only do we Canadian networks (CTV,
Global, CBC, etc.) from 5 different time zones (going from east in
Halifax to west in Vancouver), we get an eastcoast set of US networks
(ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS) from the eastcoast (either Detroit or
Boston) and the westcoast (Seattle). Of course, that wouldn't have
made a difference yesterday since *all* soaps were preempted or aired
at weird times.
I thought I saw a CBS soap at 11AM during The Price Is Right slot.
And obviously I don't have to watch, but it's absolutely correct that
it
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Anonymous Wrote:
Your hunch is off a bit. I live in the L.A. area and I can tell you from
the interviews the locals have gotten from fans, that there were A LOT
of people who came from every corner of the globe to say goodbye to MJ.
Just this a.m., the locals are discussing this aspect of the story and
how much money was made from the extra tourism it's brought in.
Ravl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:07:45 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 7, 1:40 pm, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
Arguably he is the Mozart of our day. And in his time many felt
Mozart's contibutions weren't of great consequence either.
Let's put this in perspective. This man - regardless of what you
think of his personal life - is one of the most famous people in the
world, his influence on modern music is beyond question, and if you
had actually watched the memorial you would have learned that his
personal charitable contributions exceded $300 million in addition to
the donations he helped garner through his creation of and
participation in in "We Are the World" and other fund raising
effrots. He is arguably the voice of my generation (I'm 45) and
arguably the greatest entertainer to have ever lived.
So we missed our soaps. We're talking SOAP OPERAS people! I'm a
daily viewer of both AMC and GH, and I've been watching AMC since the
first episode - but come on! We'll survive.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:19:25 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 10:07 am, Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
A big Plus One.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:33:15 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 7:19 am, record hunter <...@gmail.com
And then some!
Shirl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:03:13 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com
I'm 46, and he's not the voice of _my_ generation. (I see Dylan, Lennon, and
Springsteen more in those roles. Even Bono. Heavy hitter songwriters. I'm
not even particularly fond of Springsteen or Bono, but they had more
significant things to say than Michael Jackson did.) And I didn't need to
watch the memorial to know about MJ's charitable contributions. And none of
this has anything to do with the fact that I think the media is going way
overboard in the coverage of this story, which is where I came into this
discussion. That's just my opinion, and obviously we traveled in different
circles and had different influences.
IMHO, you really can't compare him to Mozart. And this comes from someone
who has been involved in the serious music industry in various capacities for
several decades.
I never said we _wouldn't_. Someone posted a thread on the subject, and I
weighed in with my opinion, which is that I would rather have seen my soap
and that I think this item -- the memorial in its entirety and the fact of
his death -- is getting way too much airtime. IMHO.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:12:50 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8, 11:03 am, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.comwrote:
Dylan and Lennon - unquestionably important - IMO are more the voice
of generation prior to us - or at least people at least 10 years older
than we are. I do agree that Springsteen is also a voice for our
generation. Bono? Maybe
As to having "more significant things to say" - I suggest you listen
to some of MJ's later works "Man in the Mirror", "Human Nature", "Heal
the World". And as to the music of his heyday as a solo artist, "Beat
It" spoke to gang violence, "Billie Jean" spoke to teenage pregnancy
and fathers' lack of responsibility towards their children, etc. I
can understand "the message" being lost to some of us because of the
shiny glove and the moonwalk and the dance music quality of the songs
- as opposed to the more clearly ideological preaching style of
Dylan, Springsteen and Bono - but does that make the message any less
relevant, less important, or more significantly, less understood by
the very people he's trying to reach?
The reason I said that is because it doesn't seem that anyone who has
made that kind of contribution throughout the world can be deemed as
unimportant or not deserving of the attention his death has garnered.
I submit no other single entertainer has donated so much of his or her
personal fortune to charities throughout the world. If csomeone can
prove otherwise, with verifiable sources, I'd like to see it.
I disagree. I do think the quality of his music was significant - and
to gauge whether or not music is *good* by whether other artists can
perform it "well" (another very subjective concept) is IMO not a
valid indicator. His music was very heavy with inflection,
intonation, etc. not everyone can do that.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Hilda:
I posted that above in a couple of places during the course of this
discussion. As I said, when you talk about the GOOD someone did,
people either ignore it completely or poo-poo it as if it doesn't
count for anything. People would rather focus on "weirdness" or
"bizarre" than on concrete good. Just see what the first response is
when you say you'd like to see *a little* harmony among SOME
characters in a soap opera -- "Happy is BORING".
Shirl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:48:33 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@p36g2000prn.googlegroups.com
Or, people ignore it _in this context_ because it has nothing to do with the
discussion at hand. He could have been the most generous person in the
history of the entire universe; it doesn't change the fact that the bulk of
his newsworthiness over the past twenty years has been about his bizarre
personal life, and not about his music. Which is what Suzanne said, you
disputed, and I defended. The breadth of his charitable contributions is
another subject entirely.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
Aisling Willow Grey:
It is completely relevant to the discussion about what he has done
professionally in the last 20 years! And yes, that WAS what I
mentioned the charity work in response to.
I never disputed that the media had a field day with his weirdness.
They absolutely did, and people couldn't get enough of it. Yes, it is
agreed that his bizarre antics kept him in the news. But whether or
not he would have been as popular had all the negative/weird stuff
never happened is JUST a guess. No way we'll ever know. Point is, even
without all the weirdness, his achievements DO speak for themselves,
whether you were a fan or not. It's just SILLY to try and deny them or
to label him/them as "not musically relevant"! His affect on the music
industry has been enormous, whether you can bring yourself to
acknowledge it or not.
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:52:03 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Aisling Willow Grey" <...@fjordstone.com
My age put me smack dab in the 80s in my teen years, and while I was aware
of the influence MJ had back then, I personally never felt it extended
beyond "Thriller." I love those old stars from the 80s and listen to them
all the time (even when they don't die!), and I can't see MJ as being any
better or more musically significant than any other. If anything, I put the
synth bands as the REAL musical pioneers of that decade. For the first time
in pop music, songs were being composed on instruments other than guitar or
piano, and the results were incredible. MJ was a great music and video star
in the 80s, but that's really as far as he went. The rest of his fame up to
this point has (unfortunately) been about his personal life. It would have
been great if he'd stayed "normal" and continued to make music--he may have
ended up like Bono or Lauper; still in the industry but not out in
front--but instead he chose to make his bizarre lifestyle the reason for his
continued fame.
--S.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:33:22 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8, 2:52 pm, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
[SNIP]
[SNIP]
OK - that's it. I'm out. There is no way you and I will EVER agree
on music. :)
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:16:03 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D:
Hilda:
LOL. Funny!
(and ICAM!)
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:49:38 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Aisling Willow Grey" <...@fjordstone.com
What I don't understand is the adulation for a man who really only had a few
years of great music. He's been in the public eye his whole life due to his
early fame, but has he been RELEVANT this whole time? He tried to make some
music in the 90s, but he never had the success he had in the 80s.
So giving this much attention to his death makes no more sense than giving
that much attention to the death of Madonna, or Cyndi Lauper, or any of the
guys in Duran Duran. They had similar levels of fame that MJ had, but
despite attempts to revive their pop careers over the year, they have never
been as big as they were in the 80s. If Simon leBon dies, are we all
expected to watch his funeral for hours? Or do we sigh, remember the group,
listen to their songs, wish his family well, and get on with life?
Michael Jackson was no bigger a star than anyone else who had a short run of
great fame before fading. His "stardom" in the last 20 years focused on his
creepiness rather than his music. (Can you easily name any Michael Jackson
song from the last two decades?) The way people are going on about it you'd
think he remained a brilliant start up to the time of his death. This just
isn't true.
--S.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:56:48 -0400, "D.M. Stillwood" <...@earthlink.net
Neither was Elvis (in fact, he was a bloated, drug-addled parody of his
former self), yet people still flock to Graceland.
D.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:04:15 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
D.M. Stillwood:
Proving that a person doesn't have to be brilliant, or flawless, for
their entire lives to continue to be appreciated long after they're
gone.
Shirl
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:15:16 -0500, Alane <...@aol.com
Bob Greene had a nice piece in the NYTimes today about Elvis' funeral and
how that was just the next step in his "career."
Alane
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:02:32 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article <...@mid.individual.net
Thanks, Alane -- I'll definitely check that article out.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT), berk <...@yahoo.com
On Jul 7, 10:49 am, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
You are making some valid points, re: his latest career moves didn't
generate the kind of success his early and middle periods did.
If Bono dies, what then? Jackson was doing more than just being a
celebrity, over the course of decades. It is not apples & apples to
consider him with "...Madonna, or Cyndi Lauper, or any of the guys in
Duran Duran".
That is the healthy thing to do, but pausing, for a bit (and
unfortunately for some preempting a day's worth of programing), that
too is very human- if, yes commercial as well. It's not either/or;
remembrance/acknowledgment vs 'just get on with it...'.
To quote a certain film; "That is a Bold Statement..."
The way people are going on, and not everybody is going on btw, but
the way that folks are affected is related to the whole of his life-
not just (to quote his sister) "What have you done for me lately?".
Listen, it's complicated. But without doubt there is more here than
'some pop start died, "so what?"'
If you, anyone, is already entrenched in their take on all this, then
nothing is likely to alter that. If however you give yourself an
opportunity to broaden your understanding you might not being doing
Michael Jackson, the rest of us, or more importantly yourself, a
disservice.
berk
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:04:54 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
berk:
LOL, no kidding!
MJ's career covered 38 years, and he was only 50. His "King of Pop"
compilation, released in 2008, was in the top 10 in several countries.
Some of the websites where you could have bought tickets for the
upcoming tour, scheduled to begin the middle of this month and
continue through Spring, 2010, are still up and show that most, if not
all, dates were already "Sold Out". I hardly think that is indicative
of an entertainer who was "no bigger a star than anyone else who had a
short run of great fame before fading". That's an absolutely ignorant
statement.
Well said, berk.
Shirl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:43:57 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com
Please watch how you snip your attributions -- I did _not_ say that. That
was Suzanne's comment.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
You're right... I'm sorry for the goof.
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:28:27 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"berk" <...@yahoo.comnews:a414b002-b014-4e7a-aeee-
celebrity, over the course of decades. It is not apples & apples to
consider him with "...Madonna, or Cyndi Lauper, or any of the guys in
Duran Duran".
________________
Why not? They were the superstars of the 80s right alongside him. Lauper
is still active in theater, the Durans are still recording, and Madonna
is...well, she's becoming a plastic surgery freak like MJ did. Your mention
of Bono was interesting--he is someone who was almost as big as MJ in the
80s, yet still continued to make music and to promote organizations to help
people worldwide. Bono is relevant today, but I'll bet if he died there
wouldn't be hours of funeral service coverage for him, simply because he
stayed normal.
I honestly think that if MJ had cooled down the way the other mega-stars of
the 80s had, and had NOT become a freak show everyone loved to rag on, then
there wouldn't be this level of coverage. In the last two decades he was
famous ONLY by virtue of being nuts.
--S.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:46:00 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D.:
Really? Are you familiar with what he's done professionally in the
last two decades? The legal stuff definitely slowed him down, no
doubt. But notice that nearly all the shows in the upcoming tour -- 50
of them from mid-July 2009 through Spring-2010 -- were already Sold
Out (estimates in excess of 1,000,000). Were they all only interested
enough to buy tickets because he was "nuts"?
I guess this kind of attitude is to be expected. Pretty sad.
Shirl
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:07:44 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Shirl" <...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Suzanne D.:
Really? Are you familiar with what he's done professionally in the
last two decades?
______________
No. That's my point.
--S.
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:27:55 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D:
Shirl:
Suzanne D:
Yep, and it was my point, too.
Not everyone who was unaware of what he was doing professionally made
the assumption that he was nuts.
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 03:31:11 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Shirl" <...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Suzanne D:
Shirl:
Suzanne D:
Yep, and it was my point, too.
Not everyone who was unaware of what he was doing professionally made
the assumption that he was nuts.
_______________
Sp the people who worked with him didn't think he was nuts. The rest of the
world, however...
Seriously, when has he been in the news EXCEPT for doing something bizarre?
--S.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
Suzanne:
Yeah, neither did the people who benefited from all his charity work,
or the fans who couldn't wait for a new CD or another concert tour.
Seriously, that's been my point where it comes to the soap opera press
also. The news *doesn't report* much of the good stuff; they zero-in
on anything bizarre and then, like Nelson Branco, embellish it any way
they think will sell more copy or bring in more viewers. Of course,
the more bizarre, the better.
Nobody wants to hear about anything good anyone might be doing, and in
fact, this discussion is a prime example -- the good stuff being
either completely ignored or poo-pooed because it's obviously more
sensational to zero-in on the bizarre. And yes, of course MJ's life
gave the media plenty of "bizarre" fodder. IMO, bizarre does not
necessarily always = guilty, but I realize that's considered part of
the evidence with many.
Shirl
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Anonymous Wrote:
If it bleeds, it leads. Don Henley's Dirty Laundry tells it.
Ravl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:47:12 GMT, David Johnston <...@block.net
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:27:55 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.comwrote:
I don't understand your point.
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:00:59 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
Are _you_ familiar with what he's done professionally in the last two
decades?
Dangerous (1991)
HIStory (1995)
Invincible (2001)
That's not a lot for a pop icon. Three albums in twenty years (there was
nothing between 1987 and 1991, which is why I didn't start at 1989).
I think you may have missed that this tour was meant to be a comeback.
Suzanne is, in the main, correct.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:53:44 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D.:
Shirl:
Correct about WHAT? that he was nuts?
I did not miss anything. SO WHAT if this tour was meant to be a
comeback? Would you have expected him to be touring or making/
releasing new music during all the legal wrangling? ANYONE would have
needed time to recoup after all that. I don't know that he did much
musically after all that until 2008. Obviously, someone must have
appreciated him for being something other than "nuts" for all those
planned concerts to be Sold Out before the tour even began.
And "professionally" does not only mean albums, but in that regard ...
- HIStory (1995) was a double, with one disc including 15 new songs.
It not only was a number-one release, it sold over 20 million, was the
highest selling double-album and won a Grammy nomination. So, it
wasn't just ANY release. Along with it was the HIStory World Tour
where he did concerts in 60 cities, attended by almost 5 million fans.
- Blood on the Dance Floor (1997) - included 5 new songs and sold
something like ?? 6 million
- Invincible - 10 million
- What More Can I Give (2001) - benefit concert ("United We Stand")
for 9-11
Insiders have said there is a sizable collection of unreleased songs.
Remains to be seen if anything is ever done with those, but if so, we
may see that although he wasn't releasing anything, he was still
creating, behind the scenes.
In addition to albums/CDs, MJ supported (many by putting in
appearances and performing) the most charities of any entertainer
during his career, many of them children's charities. He was also
instrumental in enlisting the participation of other artists in many
of those charitable functions.
Doesn't sound to me like someone who is "famous for being nuts".
Shirl
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Anonymous Wrote:
He also was raising kids at the time.
Ravl
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:45:09 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com
No, I was responding to your statement, "Are you familiar with what he's done
professionally in the last two decades?" I thought that was pretty clear.
As for what he was famous for, well, he obviously wasn't famous for being a
currently-producing musician in that time. He wasn't making new music.
People were mostly interested in him because of the crazy stories and the
cosmetic surgery.
The first case was 1993-94. Settled in 1994. Over. The next case didn't
come up until 2003. It ended in May of 2005, when he was acquitted. That's
just not that much time.
He did nothing. My list was for the last twenty years. 1989-2009.
That's a straw man; the two have nothing to do with one another. Of course
people who love his music -- even if he had nothing current -- would pay to
see him in concert. Nostalgia acts tour all the time, very successfully. It
still doesn't mean that the public interest in him in the last twenty years
has been predominantly about his music. It can't have been, because he
barely _made_ any music. Music is not what he was making the news for,
mostly.
This does nothing to minimize the great videos and albums he put out in the
80s; it's just evidence that he was not relevant, musically, and that he
wasn't _producing_, and that therefore if he _was_ in the news a lot over the
past twenty years (which he _was_), it had to be for some other reason. For
Suzanne to shorthand it to "being nuts" is not that big a deal; I think we
all know what she means, and it doesn't mean he was clinically insane. It
means he was mostly famous for the wacky things he was doing (and being
accused of). And I don't care how talented you think he is, or what kind of
a contribution he made to the entertainment industry in his heyday: it's a
_fact_, that is what he was mostly newsworthy for!
(The funny thing in all of this is that I'm being forced to argue the 'anti'
side as though I'm an MJ hater, when my husband and I have been playing his
music in the house for the past week and a half, and actually sitting down
and watching some of those retrospectives and video hours on MTV and VH1,
beginning to end -- because we REALLY LIKE HIS SONGS! Liking his songs and
videos, however, does not blind us to the fact of the man's faults and
shortcomings.)
Yes, that is what it means. "Professionally" means his musical career.
Charity work is not his "professional" work, unless he was performing at
those events. Which I doubt, because even his private performances for
sheiks and other rich dilettantes had dried up because he was _unable to
perform_ for the past few years.
His work supporting charities does nothing to make him musically relevant,
and that's what we were talking about. He wasn't making the news because of
appearances at charity events -- no one does. Not much, anyway (usually a
few smaller papers may 'bite' when a publicist sends out PR about a star's
charity work).
And even at that, I don't know how much "charity work" (i.e. donating money,
because he sure wasn't singing at those events) he was doing -- his estate
was tied up in legal matters and he owed more liquid capital than he _had_
recently, which is why Neverland was falling into disrepair -- he couldn't
afford the upkeep. I think the Beatles catalog was the only solid asset he
still owned free and clear, and only because someone in his business
structure was smart enough to tie that property up in such a way that it
couldn't be foreclosed upon like some of his other properties.
All songwriters have loads of unreleased songs, which are not always entire
songs. Snippets of music, an idea for a lyric. Even if they're complete
songs, they may not be _good_ ones. No one will know until we actually _see_
this supposed collection. And, it still doesn't make him musically relevant:
my husband is a songwriter, a very good one, who has composed over 2,000
songs in his lifetime, but you have never heard them unless you happen to be
a fan of one of our unsigned bands in which we perform. So, again,
unreleased songs don't make someone musically relevant.
Really? I wasn't aware that he was routinely performing at these charity
events. Where did you read that? I'd like to look those up. My
understanding is that he has not been able to perform for some years.
"Enlisting the participation of other artists in...charitable functions"
doesn't make someone relevant musically.
We will have to agree to disagree (and I think that most of the mainstream
media is on Suzanne's side in this, which can easily be verified by checking
their archives on the keyphrase "michael jackson," and seeing what articles
they've featured on him).
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:34:51 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Aisling Willow Grey" <...@fjordstone.com
That was the point I was trying to make. He had ONE blockbuster album. Yet
he is still famous 25 years after that. Had he stayed "normal" (meaning, no
massive plastic surgeries, no lawsuits about little boys, no surrogate
mothers, no masks, etc.), then he would simply have been like any other star
from the "Thriller" era and he wouldn't be getting such adulation at his
death. The reason everyone remained interested in him was because of all
the bizarre things he did. He became a joke at least 15 years ago, and THIS
is why the public remained interested in him. I said it elsewhere but will
say it again: I have to wonder if all of this attention is based just a
little bit in guilt, for ridiculing a man who really did make a great album
that we all loved back in the 80s.
No; it was a catch-all for "got tons of creepy plastic surgery, fathered
three kids with surrogates yet never came out as gay, had an unhealthy
interest in little boys, probably molested some of those boys, had an
abnormal obsession with staying a child forever," etc.
Yep; this is why he stayed in the news. Without the crazy things he would
have been as famous as Cyndi Lauper is right now. If she were to die, we'd
be sad remembering the great music SHE gave us in the 80s, but they wouldn't
show her memorial on seven different channels.
Actually, I think the mainstream is more on Shirl's side, citing him a
"genius" (because of ONE album!), saying we lost a great artist (when he
hadn't been a great artist in two decades and wasn't likely to ever be a
great artist again), spending countless news hours on him as if he were a
president or something.
--S.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D:
... yeah, and we all know how much MORE worthy *a president* is of
admiration, accolades, or "countless news hours"!
;-)
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:19:51 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8, 2:34 pm, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
First of all it wasn't "a blockbuster album" it *is* the highest
selling album of all time according to the Guinness Book of Records.
As for "ONE blockbuster album" - how do *you* define "blockbuster"?
Off the Wall (1979): 20 million
* Singles: Off the Wall, Girlfriend, She's out of My Life, Don't Stop
'til You Get Enough, Rock with You.
Thriller (1982): over 100 million
* The best selling album of all time according to the Guinness Book of
Records; eight Grammy awards.
* Singles: Billie Jean, Human Nature, The Girl Is Mine (duet with Paul
McCartney), PYT, Wanna be Startin' Somethin'.
Bad (1987): 30 million
* Singles: Bad, I Just Can't Stop Loving You, The Way You make Me
Feel, Dirty Diana, Smooth Criminal, Leave Me Alone, Man In the
Mirror.
Dangerous (1991): 30 million
* Singles: Black or White, Heal the World, Will You Be There, Gone Too
Soon, Jam
HIStory (1995): 20 million
* Singles: You Are Not Alone, They Don't care About Us, Scream.
(source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5652780/Michael-Jackso n-list-of-his-records.html)
So there was NO ongoing interest in him because of his influence on
numerous current pop music stars; or because of the way he transformed
music video both in content and style; or because of his unparalleled
philanthropy; or because of the way he changed the way pop music was
performed live; or because he was a significant pioneer in the
possibility of there being African-American *mega-stars* (Magic
Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Oprah Winfrey, and countless others must be
*lying*) . Yeah, Nelson Mandela made a point of sending a letter to
be read at his memorial and Maya Angelou wrote a poem for the event
ONLY "because of all the bizarre things he did.
[SNIPPING]
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D.
Hilda:
And HIStory was a double-disc release, and was the highest selling
multiple-disc release of all time as well.
Thank you for posting this.
It isn't as if the other releases (before or after Thriller) were
slouches in sales. And that ONLY speaks of record sales alone, not
anything else he did for the music and entertainment industries.
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:42:30 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Hilda" <...@intervalintl.comnews:8418f1e7-e4dd-4479-b54a-
So there was NO ongoing interest in him because of his influence on
numerous current pop music stars; or because of the way he transformed
music video both in content and style; or because of his unparalleled
philanthropy; or because of the way he changed the way pop music was
performed live; or because he was a significant pioneer in the
possibility of there being African-American *mega-stars* (Magic
Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Oprah Winfrey, and countless others must be
*lying*) .
_________________
I wouldn't say there was absolutely NO interest in him because of that. But
I do think the main reason for his ongoing fame was for his lifestyle over
everything else. Had he remained normal, I suspect he would have the same
level of fame as any other mega-star from his era. Whenever there was a TV
interview with him, do you think people were tuning in to see what his
latest projects were? No, they were tuning in to see his nose.
--S.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:45:01 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Suzanne D:
First, I didn't use the word "genius", but people with music/
entertainment industry credentials did. But I guess Suzanne D. is a
better judge of what makes a person an entertainment industry genius
than people who have actually spent much of their careers in that
industry in positions of power and influence themselves.
Second, he wasn't cited as a genius *because of ONE album*! It wasn't
*just* "ONE album", either ... it was the highest selling album of all
time. But there WERE others that were also highly successful. He was
also an innovative, extraordinary dancer -- not only by my
description, but also by that of others in THAT industry, including
Fred Astaire ("who?" you ask).
Third, when an artist continues to create and excel at something that
throngs of people find extraordinary in their particular industry --
art, dance, music, singing, etc. -- they don't stop being "a great
artist" just because they haven't again topped a MAJOR record they set
20 years ago!
You weren't a fan, and that's cool, many people weren't. But whether
you were a fan or not, statements about all the fuss being "because of
ONE album" is just ... well, ignorant. Sorry, but yes, that only shows
how little you know about his MANY achievements. Whether you can bring
yourself to acknowledge them or not doesn't make them any less
significant to the rest of the world.
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:44:05 -0600, "Suzanne D." <...@yahoo.com
"Shirl" <...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I didn't say you did. I was talking about the mainstream media.
How do you know I wasn't a fan? Because I don't put him on a pedestal
today?
--S.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:31:43 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Shirl:
Aisling Willow Grey:
Well, then no, Suzanne wasn't correct as she left out many things.
Again, release of CDs isn't the only thing musicians do
"professionally".
He wasn't *releasing* any new music, but again, there is said (by
insiders) to be a large collection of unreleased songs, so he may well
have been "making new music." We'll see, maybe.
Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. People love to zero-in on that kind
of thing, and the media loves it, too.
Again, not everyone goes through something like that and then just
bounces right back to whatever they were doing without missing a beat.
People who knew him -- not just one, but many -- have said the ugly
accusations altered his life, took him down. If you believe he is
guilty, you can say "good, that's what he deserved"; if you believe he
was falsely accused/innocent, it's understandable that it would have a
deep effect on such a person's motivation to create/perform.
Yeah, and you left out some stuff that I added, and I'm not aware of
everything he did during those years, either, but I'm sure if you want
to continue this indefinitely, there's a concrete list somewhere, and
again, I'm not only talking about releasing CDs. As for doing
"nothing" musically between the trial and 2008 -- that's 3 years. BFD.
There are plenty of BIG entertainers who go 3-or-more years without
doing anything new. Taking time off doesn't serve to diminish their
prior achievements/accomplishments, and like it or not, MJ had many.
I never said it was. The point I was arguing was that he hadn't done
anything "professionally" in the last two decades.
LOL. No one is "forcing" you, or anyone, to argue anything.
Again, we have to agree to disagree here too, because "professionally"
does NOT only mean releasing CDs. And yes, he absolutely DID perform
at many of those charitable events he/his people arranged. And no, not
necessarily referring to ONLY the last "few years", but over the span
of the last two to three decades.
I disagree. He raised the money for many of those charities through
benefit concerts, not only by handing them a check. If he weren't
"musically relevant", those benefits would have raised miniscule
amounts of money. It is said he contributed somewhere between $300-500
million to charities during his career, with a good chunk of that
raised in benefit concerts and/or projects like the USA For Africa
endeavor . I realize that was not ONLY Michael Jackson, but several of
the performers who participated in that said they did so because
Michael Jackson asked them. If he wasn't musically relevant, it's
doubtful he would have been that effective in enlisting others in the
industry.
I realize that. My point was not that he was famous for doing the
charity work; the point was that he wasn't "doing nothing" during
those years.
Actually, he *did* perform at many of those events.
Holy crap, you sure know how to twist words!
I never said his unreleased songs made him musically relevant! You
said he was doing nothing, and I said that remains to be seen. You
don't know any more than I do what that supposed unreleased collection
of songs consists of. I have a musical family, too ... my son, in
fact, has a handful of CDs and a sizable amount of work that COULD be
recorded with time and money. The whole point being that just because
a musician isn't releasing something every time you turn around does
not mean they're doing NOTHING. In fact, some musicians who release
one new song after another often have nothing more than a mediocre
collection. One of my favorites is Eric Clapton ... God knows, there
have been gaps in his career where nothing new was released, too. So I
guess he isn't "musically relevant", either. Yeah, right!
Where do you see that I said "routinely performing"? nor did I specify
anything about the last few years with regard to performances at
charity events.
Well, let's see YOU try to enlist the participation of all the artists
who participated in his charitable endeavors. Do you think YOU would
have the same response as he did? I'd say that's doubtful. Why?
Because YOU are not musically relevant.
Criminy ... like him or not, if Michael Jackson WAS NOT musically
relevant, WHO THE HELL is? That's just laughable!
Shirl
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:42:44 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 10:31 am, Shirl <...@gmail.com
I would say "that's what we get for crossposting," but we weren't the
crossposters.
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:22:34 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com
Oh, really? I'm here in r.a.t.s.a., where I always post. From where I sit,
you people are the interlopers. But let's not dissolve into stupidity; we
all know that the reason this is going across two groups is because the
original poster posted it that way, and most of us don't check for
crossposting when we reply. If you don't like it here, you're welcome to
stop replying to the posters here.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:05:29 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 11:22 am, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.comwrote:
Hahaha. Everything depends on your (one's) definition of "here." I
*hate* it when our "here" gets mixed up with your "here," because the
people from your "here" are interlopers in our "here."
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:35:28 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com
That's very surreal. I like! :-)
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:21:06 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
If he wasn't musically relevant, it's
_Currently_ musically relevant. Currently. He was not.
That's funny, because I found a site this morning that was obviously run by
devoted fans, people making an effort to counter the bad news we were always
hearing about MJ. And searching their list of his charitable efforts dating
back to 1984, on the words "sing" and "perform," I get a listing for a 2002
DNC fundraiser, a 1988 concert for the English charity "Give for Life."
That's it. And this is from _supporters_ of Jackson.
Again, not trying to minimize his charitable efforts over the years; just
countering your statement that he _performed_ for many charities over the
years while he wasn't releasing albums.
Well, you were responding to a post in which I was claiming he was not
musically relevant, and thus Suzanne's comment was correct. I've just been
staying on point.
No, it doesn't. The past has already happened. Most of why he has been in
the news in the past twenty years is because of his personal troubles and
peculiarities. You were claiming he was musically relevant, and _that's_ why
he's been in the news mostly for the past twenty years. I'm just countering
that, because it isn't true. What he was doing behind the scenes has nothing
to do with what's been written/reported about him in the news, which is what
we are talking about.
"In addition to albums/CDs, MJ supported (many by putting in appearances and
performing) the most charities of any entertainer during his career." You
said that he supported the most charities of any entertainer -- many
by...performing. How else am I supposed to read "many"? If you prefer,
change my "routinely" to "often." But you're the one who said it!
Wow, another straw man. What I do, or do not do, has nothing to do with
whether or not a popular entertainer is musically relevant at this point in
his career. And "enlisting participation" of other artists has nothing to do
with musical relevance. In fact, reading this, I'm not sure you know what I
mean by that. To be "musically relevant" is someone who is influencing the
course of music _now_. It has nothing to do with whether their music was
good twenty years ago; it has nothing to do with how famous they are because
they had a string of hits in the 70s and 80s; it has nothing to do with how
many people like his old stuff. What has Michael Jackson done in the past
three years? Can you answer me that? If not, you've proved my point.
See the above. I don't think you know what the term means.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8, 11:21 am, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.comwrote:
So then according to *your* definition of relevant, John Lennon, Elvis
Presley, Buddy Holly, The Beatles, The Grateful Dead, Janis Joplin,
Jimi Hendrix, Paul McCartney, The Who, The Rolling Stones aren't
*relevant*. After all they haven't produced anything "in the past
three years" which apparently seems to be the magic number.
You also assert that to be relevant someone has to be influencing "the
course of music now". In that point I agree with you. I challenge
anyone to find *any* of the new crop of succesful R & B/Hip Hop/Dance
music performers today - albeit some better than others - that will
say Michael Jackson didn't influence them. Can the same be said about
Lennon, Dylan, and the others I mentioned above?
Justin Timberlake? Practically a reincarnation of MJ of the 80s, down
to the dance moves; Usher, Beyonce, Britney, all of them - watch them
in concert. Who came up with *dancers* as part of a music concert?
Until Mchael Jackson's 80s videos and concerts - it was the singer
with or without a band on stage performing. There wasn't a cadre of
choreographed professionals dancing in sync with the singer. IMO, not
only musically but in regards to perfomance style, MJ was THE
influence for most if not all of today's "Pop" stars.
That's also an important distinction - MJ is considered the King of
Pop - not classical music, not protest or socially relevant songs, not
instrumentall progressive music - but of *Pop*.
Again, IMO, his musical significance and lasting importance in popular
music is unquestionable.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:00:12 -0700 (PDT), record hunter <...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 12:41 pm, Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
Mr. JT was as conspicuously absent yesterday as Diana Ross, IMO. Were
he and Michael Jackson not friends?
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:54:09 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8, 2:00 pm, record hunter <...@gmail.com
I don't know the circumstances regarding Timberlake, but a letter from
Diana Ross was read by Smokey Robinson at the very beginnig of the
event - before the actual performances began - where she explained
that she would rather mopurn him privately but she sent her
condolences to the family and fans.
He also read a letter sent by Nelson Mandela remembering MJ as a
friend, performer and philanthropist.
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:46:20 GMT, Aisling Willow Grey <...@fjordstone.com
(in article
<...@g7g2000prg.googlegroups.com
Not right now, they aren't (with the possible exception of McCartney, who is
currently working in different milieus like the symphonic, which presumably
is influencing or will influence some music students). And no, there is no
"magic number": three years was just something I pulled out of the air as
reasonable. Choose two, or four, or five if you prefer.
Not hip hop, but listen to every current singer-songwriter, and many rock
bands. But, look, it's ridiculous to parse this further. Obviously there
are people out there who were influenced by bands and artists they heard in
their youth, but I'm talking about _current relevance_. Now. Currency.
Someone creating music now that is influencing the current music scene.
That's what I am talking about when I speak about musical relevance. This
isn't an argument about pop music trends, or who is the most important
artist, or whether Michael Jackson was generous or not. This began as a
discussion of WHY MICHAEL JACKSON HAS BEEN IN THE NEWS FOR THE PAST TWENTY
YEARS. I agreed with Suzanne's statement that the lion's share of his recent
(past 20 year) news history is because of his "being nuts" (her shorthand --
I might just have readily said "his legal troubles and personally bizarre
behavior"). Not because of any musical relevance.
While I'll agree with you on this point -- he was a driving force in 80s pop
-- you can't really say he is "considered" the "King of Pop," when the memo
decreeing that's how he should be referenced came from his own people. And I
heard that from the horse's mouth last night, listening to XM satellite
radio. There was a program about Jackson being hosted by three of the
original MTV vjs: Alan Hunter, Mark Goodman, and Nina Blackwood. They had a
LONG discussion about how those memos -- memos they held in their own hands,
and read with their own eyes -- came directly from Jackson and his people,
and that it is no secret it was a self-designation.
Right, but still nothing to do with why he was in the news for the past 20
years.
Aisling
--
Ten Thousand Questions
A Question a Day for Journaling, Self-Discovery, and Transformation
"2009 is the Year of Questions"
tenthousandquestions.com
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:29:30 -0700 (PDT), Hilda <...@intervalintl.com
On Jul 8,
Aisling Willow Grey replied:
So, according to you "relevant" means "still producing". I guess
Beethoven, Mozart, and everyone who has died are no longer *relevant*
then?
[SNIP]
You know, Donny Osmond and "his people" can write a memo declaring
himself the King of Pop and send it to everyone in the muasic media -
I'm thinking it won't stick.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Shirl <...@gmail.com
Aisling Willow Grey:
For me it began with you calling the media coverage of his death and
memorial that was pre-empting your show(s) "nonsense", not about why
MJ was in the news for the last 20 years.
I agree that the majority of coverage of MJ in the last, 15+ years has
been about bizarre antics. However, had he not had the extraordinary
musical relevance he had up to that point, he likely would not have
gotten as much coverage for the bizarre, either. One fed into the
other, IMO. If a lesser artist were to have had all the cosmetic work
or been accused, it still would have been in the news, but not nearly
to the extent it was *because it was MJ*. You can't say one had
nothing to do with the other...IMO.
Shirl
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