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On 7 Nov 2009 13:36:09 GMT, Mike P <...@privacy.net
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:02:46 +1100, David Melville hollered:
They're both pretty horrid, but KDE is my preference..
Mike P
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:04:26 +0200, Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
"David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
Neither, preferably.
DWM and nothing else.
(He says typing on tty11 on a 5-year old machine which has never even
had X installed.)
Phil
--
Any true emperor never needs to wear clothes. -- Devany on r.a.s.f1
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:52:44 -0500, pltrgyst <...@spamlessxhost.org
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:02:46 +1100, "David Melville"
<...@exemail.com.au
Ummm, you don't have to choose, do you? Just load both and pick according to
your needs of the moment.
-- Larry
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:36:27 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-07, David Melville <...@exemail.com.au
Gnome is easier to get to grips with I'm told, although I'm also told
KDE is less restrictive. I've rarely tried KDE, always avoided it due
to QT back in the days when such things were considered bad, have
recently started trying it, but not enough to form an opinion on it.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:20:09 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
>XFCE!
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On 7 Nov 2009 15:45:36 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Yes, even better.
--
Paul-B
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:57:47 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
a friend swears by openbox but I wont work correctly on my Aspire Once
with Fedora 11 XFCE respin.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:07:40 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" <...@none.none
Neither. Stop wasting your time and install a proper OS like Windows 7.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:57:57 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:07:40 +1100, Mike <...@none.none
Hmmmmmm.
An OS I (should) pay for, loaded with software I (should) pay for, or....
A free OS that works just as well, is more customizable, faster, boots and
shuts down in a flash, small, with freely available software which is
every bit the replacement for all the other (ostensibly paid-for) software
I used under my (ostensibly paid-for) OS.
Tough decision.
I've been loving it since day 2.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 23:41:36 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 6:05 pm, Noj <...@nomail.afraid.org
Most "free" or more correctly "open source" applications can be easily
compiled in any nix environment and in fact many have migrated from
nix apps.
beers,
builld
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:33:28 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:05:57 +1100, Noj <...@nomail.afraid.org
http://www.winehq.org/
Easy peasy.
Not so hard.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:22:11 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
don't forget security.
Anti Virus - Don't need any
Firewall - Part of the system Kernel not an afterthought.
Most of you are currently using linux without realising it. There is a
v.good chance that is what your news server is running & most web
servers are Linux or BSD
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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 23:46:40 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 6:22 pm, Alister <...@nospam.com
I do not know of any email app in any OS that does required AV unless
it is integrated to your mail server..
Do you not run Shorewall? If not, you should (or similar).
Security is inherent but a firewall is not part of the kernel.
True usenet is I think (certainly google) totally nix based.
beers,
build
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 08:22:46 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-08, build <...@gmail.com
Yes it is, iptables is part of the kernel, you may be thinking of an
iptables configuration programme, of which there are plenty, myself I
use bash ;-)
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 02:09:53 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 7:22 pm, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
Sorry mate but that reply was a bit smart arsed and geeky, so I'll
explain to you and other readers what iptables are. iptables are
simple text files, nothing more, they are not part of the kernel and
alone they do absolutely nothing. Netfilter on the other hand does, it
reads the iptables and routes packets accordingly, hence protecting a
system. Yep, netfilter not iptables, is there ready and waiting and
accepting all. In other words doing nothing until you or a utility
writes some rules for it to follow You need to configure it by writing
iptables. If that is not done netfilter does absolutely nothing, so no
a firewall is not part of the system. The system (since 2.4) does have
provision for but does not include a firewall.
The casual reader of this may find Netfilter and Shorewall confusing
and not have the skill to write iptables, if so there are newer and
easier utilities, just google them do not let the geeks scare you,
most nix systems are far easier to use than the geeks would like you
to think, they do like you to think they are smarter than you are,
usually not the case. Hell, you've read my posts! am I smarter? NO!
And now I've upset someone else, cest la vie.
beers,
build
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 02:20:54 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 9:09 pm, build <...@gmail.com
Ian,
Sorry previous post was out of line, I'm in an intolerant mood. Please
ignore it.
Apologies,
build
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 02:34:03 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 8, 9:20 pm, build <...@gmail.com
SH** ... does anyone have a cure for foot in mouth disease?
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:58:42 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-08, build <...@gmail.com
Heh, don't worry I wasn't sure if you were being rude or not, if you
were then you've got a lot to learn, as you weren't doing it obviously
enough ;-)
Netfilter is indeed the kernel's filtering stuff, iptables is the
command that you can use to configure it on all distros I've seen,
including reading out the stuff that you've put in with iptables or
with other firewall GUI editors. I use iptables because it's very
flexible if rather hard to use, but am moving from Gentoo to Ubuntu
(most likely, maybe straight Debian, not made up my mind yet) and that
has a firewall config programme called firestarter (I think) that I've
used once so far, looks OK but probably a bit limiting if you want to
do stuff like port forwarding and I'm not sure how it will work with
other rules added outside of it, e.g. for traffic shaping, IP
blocklists from ipblock, rate limiting, MTU clamping rules and other
such stuff, I'll be testing that out this week.
Linux does however have firewalling built into the kernel via
netfilter, and most of the distros I've seen come with iptables so I
rather lazily (and incorrectly, I know, I've configured my own kernels
so know it's netfilter that you need to enable and all the associated
modules). However if I remember correctly, Windows also has in-built
firewalling from quite a long time back, I remember setting up some
rules via command-prompt programmes on a Windows 2000 box but can't
quite remember what it was all about now. I was trying to get address
translation working on it without installing any extra packages, I
nearly got there but didn't try for long.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:48:45 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
Outlook most certainly requires antivirus
Many viruses are spread because of Outlook's insecurity.
& the default behaviour of most windoze users is to click yes when asked
if they want to install XYZ.
I see this has been discused in more technical terms later. The
important part is that the firewall is a truly intregral part of the OS
& not bolted on after.
(I leave the majority of my firewall requirements to my router).
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:10:52 +0200, Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
"David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
Hmmm, I started using linux in 1993, but even I was late to the party
it seems.
Phil
--
Any true emperor never needs to wear clothes. -- Devany on r.a.s.f1
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:40:27 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:10:52 +1100, Phil Carmody
<...@yahoo.co.uk
<G
But, since day 2, it has shit me a WHOLE lot less than Windows on a good
day.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:44:03 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:10:52 +0200, Phil Carmody
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Indeed. I made mine from a rib.
--
Regards, Frank
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:56:15 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:44:03 +1100, Frank Adam
<...@notthis.optushome.com.au
sudo rib --eve
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:35:08 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
It sometimes felt like that in the early '90s, hey Phil?
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:26:29 +0200, Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
My first encounter with linux was as a server OS, where I wasn't the
sysadmin, merely a remote user. The guys who were adminning it were
true we-can-do-it geeks, and I never had any problems at all. If
there were hiccups, all I had to do was 'write'. Quotas were big
enough that I could simply compile my own IRC/mail/news client if
it wasn't deemed popular enough. Everything was at doc.ic.ac.uk, IIRC.
I never got into the 'build your own kernel' fetish, though. Sure,
once perhaps, per machine, but never the once-a-week that some
-funroll-loops perverts seem to like.
Until recently that is; I'm now recompiling the kernel 20 times a day
as $DAYJOB. Ahhh, serial console UART drivers await me tomorrow...
Phil
--
Any true emperor never needs to wear clothes. -- Devany on r.a.s.f1
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 15:31:31 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
Another blast from the past. :-)
src.doc.ic.ac.uk was the first stop for most things in the early/mid
90s.
God, no. I had to do a lot of it early on because you almost always had
to tweak some of the source if you had unusual hardware. Later on, we
did a fair bit just so we could manage lots of disparate hardware using
a single image (when modules didn't have all the answers). The people
who do it for fun are just crazy or have way too much time on their
hands. Bad as spinoza111. ;-)
Have fun. It's better than management...which is what I spend most of
my working day on now. :-(
Still, they can't stop me hacking in my own time. ;-)
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:07:24 +0200, Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Dang - I forgot 'src.'! I'll drink a fine.
Woh - newsgroup cross-pollination!
I don't believe even the most fucked up rampant kernel rebuilder is
as bad as Eddy Bilges. At least they mostly keep themselves to
themselves and don't display their pitifulness in public.
Damagement is making my life no fun at all - I don't need to be in
the job to suffer from it.
Hmmm, that reminds me, I have about 120 patches to submit to Linus'
tree... I just need to write the perl script which will do everything
robomatically.
Phil
--
Any true emperor never needs to wear clothes. -- Devany on r.a.s.f1
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:35:24 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Phil Carmody <...@yahoo.co.uk
I didn't forget - but I'll drink a fine too. ;-)
Sorry.
He's (thankfully) pretty much one of a kind.
Sorry. I ended up with two choices: put up with an idiot as the boss or
be (the idiot as) the boss.
I'd like to think I'm marginally less an idiot than the person who would
have taken the job.
Heh.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:24:24 +0000 (UTC), APLer <...@floor.tilde
"David Melville" <...@exemail.com.aunews:op.u20zuwu8h6mygt@david-desktop:
Neither. They mess with/hide X's intrinsics. olvwm or fvwm2.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:35:38 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
APLer <...@floor.tilde
twm, surely?
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 21:13:57 +0000 (UTC), APLer <...@floor.tilde
Mark <...@north.jnrs.ja.net:
Naw. Never really appealed to me somehow. olvwm *looks* like unix
is supposed to: strangely different and all shiny.<g
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 21:26:55 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
APLer <...@floor.tilde
I always loathed OPEN LOOK - just didn't appeal.
Frankly, I felt happier with the command-line.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:13:24 +0000 (UTC), APLer <...@floor.tilde
Mark <...@north.jnrs.ja.net:
Yes. Absolutely. However if one must choose a wm for X - as this thread
*is* about, It would be my choice. Some have leanings toward the MS world
and for them I'd recommend fvwm95 if they don't want unix to confuse
them.<g
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:11 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-08, Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
I played with a keyboard-only window manager some time ago, windows
were fixed to quarter-size of the screen or other configurable
segments and it was quite good, although rather limiting on occasion.
Most of my linuxing is done via the keyboard so it appealed to me for
a while but started to get too much like hard work.
These days I use metacity under gnome, getting soft ;-) It does
however have quite good keyboard interaction for managing, moving and
resizing windows which is why I've carried on with it. I might try
fluxbox again as I liked its window tabbing, I'd restrict that for use
on a machine with a decent mouse though.
One thing that's constantly put me off using windows more is the lack
of decent virtual desktops, I've tried a few of them (not for a few
years now though) and none of them have really worked properly. That
and the virus/malware problem..
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:02:30 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
I started out years ago long before MS had anything of use to us. Most
of our work was on Unix (SunOS, Ultrix and some really obscure variants,
now deceased) and VMS - and it was on (CRT) terminals, so the only
"virtual" support you got was built into the terminal server or using
"screen"-like virtual terminal software. I spent a long time supporting
research on the Unix side which gradually migrated to being Linux-only.
I'm still most happy using Unix-like systems, but I'm not too bothered
about the windows managers - I'm happy to adapt - and I still stick with
terminals for a great deal of what I do (and I use screen all the time).
I agree with you, though, that virtual desktops is very limited on
Windows. Now I have no choice but to handle whatever our research and
teaching requires, which is a mix of Windows, Linux and MacOS where
Linux dominates the research, Windows more the teaching and MacOS
popular amongst the *nix crowd on the move who have to deal with the
more administrative side as well as research.
I still save a soft spot for twm because, despite being fairly
primitive, manages to do what it does really well and, as a
touch-typist, I appreciate how it all works really well using the main
keys and no need for a mouse for most things. tvtwm was pretty
impressive when it first appeared too, but the virtual port stuff became
much less important once we all had better than 640x480 resolution.
Stop making me reminisce! I'm supposed to be getting on with work*!
* As you can tell from the fact I'm distracting myself with Usenet...
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:12:25 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:12:11 +1100, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.ukwrote:
Bang on.
Love the multiple desktop option, and you're right..... all attempts at
that chestnut in Windows went bad.... even Video card manufacturers own
software.
Virus? What virus? (Are you listening Windows?)
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:44:19 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:12:25 +1100, "David Melville"
<...@exemail.com.au
Heh, i drove around in the desert with my eyes closed and never hit a
tree.
I haven't had a virus on any of my machines in some 5-6 years. The
main virus is in the users. Nothing will execute on my system unless i
allow it.
As for Linux, it can be kept tight because nobody really targets them.
At any moment you care to mention, there would be hundreds of coders
punching keys, trying to to hit Windows systems.
--
Regards, Frank
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On 7 Nov 2009 15:45:15 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
KDE for me.
--
Paul-B
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 04:22:04 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On 7 Nov 2009 15:45:15 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
XPSP3 for me. :)
Btw Paul, how is Windows 7 ? I know you've given it a workout, so any
last comments ? Or rights ? :)
--
Regards, Frank
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On 8 Nov 2009 12:18:55 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
I love it. Been running it on one of my PC's for nearly a year, it's
light-years better than Vista (but then, so is XP).
My current 64-bit RTM version of Win 7 Ultimate finds all my hardware,
sees the 8Gb of DDR3 RAM in it, and is happy with all my software.
Once you get used to the front-end it's sweet.
--
Paul-B
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 02:31:04 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On 8 Nov 2009 12:18:55 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Thanks.. Time to upgrade one machine and see. We'll chat again a year
after Win 8 Beta comes out ? :)
Now you're starting to worry me.. I certainly hate Vista's layout on
my daughter's laptop and blaspheme endlessly every time i have to fix
something. All my PCs are running in classic mode, so i guess i might
be up for a bit more cursing. Hoping for an XP classic option. :(
--
Regards, Frank
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:31:48 +0000, Mike <...@gmail.com
Just to butt in, i've been using 7 for about 3 months now. Best upgrade
my latop has ever had (apart from the dual boot Ubuntu i've installed
since.) So much lighter and quicker than Vista.
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:31:22 +0000, martin <...@etiqa.co.uk
If I might chime in too ... been running it for almost 18 months and all
the faults with Vista went away and my laptop hasn't looked back, and
it's not a very powerful laptop at that.
Going to install the RTM on my desktop and laptop whenever I get a spare
weekend to make sure everything is backed up fully and get all the
applications back together.
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Anonymous Wrote:
martin <...@etiqa.co.uk
Out of interest, would anyone care to hasard a guess as to whether
Windows 7 will run on my 5 year old Compaq Presario laptop? I'm running
XP on it OK - a little slowly but quite bearable - never went to Vista,
but I'd like to give 7 a shot. I tried the beta in Parallels on the Mac,
and found it quite snappy and pleasant.
Laptop specs (very modest) : 2Ghz Intel 4m / 1Gb RAM / 160Gb HD / ATI
onboard video 64mb
Actually, if the damned Adobe Creative Suite were only available on
Linux, I'd ditch Win altogether and install Ubuntu on it like a shot.
It's so much lighter on resources than XP, that it'd be like getting a
new laptop. Adobe's absence is actually the only thing preventing me
from doing that. <sigh--
ric
ric at pixelligence dot com
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:59:29 +0000, martin <...@etiqa.co.uk
I'd stick with XP. Sounds like your machine should run XP just fine, Win
7 really does need a little more than 1G RAM, although my laptop only
has a gig (but dual core). Reinstall XP (if you have the apps discs) and
see how it feels after that.
My sister has a single core pentium and 1G RAM and it just about runs
Vista if you're patient with boot up. So Win 7 wouldn't be ruled out.
Sorry it's a bit of a non-answer, you're on the border line.
Take a ghost image of current setup (download free trial), borrow a copy
of Win 7 and see how it feels. You can install it without needing a
licence key to try it out. Only way I'm afraid. Sorry.
> from doing that. <sigh>
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:29:21 +0000, Alan Smith <...@none.com
Or try Xubuntu it's installs even less than Ubuntu.
Alan...
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:38:53 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
Have you tried to run it under WINE?
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On 8 Nov 2009 12:19:57 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Can't you run it under WINE or something similar?
--
Paul-B
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Anonymous Wrote:
Paul-B <...@rasf1.net
Nope. It won't install. The only thing that runs clean on WINE is
Photoshop 7, which is very old - it came out in 2002...
--
ric zito
ric at pixelligence dot com
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:51:27 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:46:17 +1100, ric zito <...@in.sig
<GrrrrrrrrrowwwwlllllStart your /own/ OT thread, zito.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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Anonymous Wrote:
David Melville <...@exemail.com.au
;-)
--
ric zito
ric at pixelligence dot com
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On 9 Nov 2009 11:39:00 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
"David Melville" <...@exemail.com.aunews:op.u20zuwu8h6mygt@david-desktop:
Stop swimming against the tide.
Windows 7
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was freedom is just greed."
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:53:31 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:39:00 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.comwrote:
Yawn.
Yet more bloat.
And, how much?
Anyway, swimming against the tide is sometimes worth the effort.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On 9 Nov 2009 16:05:17 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
"David Melville" <...@exemail.com.aunews:op.u23wzhhah6mygt@david-desktop:
If you can be bothered I suppose.
I just don't want to be looking for and relearning new apps on another
OS, dealing with the dramatically reduced number of apps available for
any purpose, the difference between what I use at work and home, games,
the greater user / experience base.
And for most of those reasons I would also not use a Mac.
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was freedom is just greed."
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On 9 Nov 2009 07:59:24 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Does bloat matter, when you can buy a terabyte hard drive for around
£40 uk, and 8Gb DDR3 RAM for around £70? I just bought 2 quad-core
Athlons for client's machines which cost me £58 each!
Win 7 is fast, it's nowhere near as memory-hungry as Vista, installs in
under half an hour and, imo, is going to be around for a while.
I never worry about viruses, the only time I see a virus on my network
is when I deliberately infect a pc, and then I use sandboxie to play
around with it.
Win 7 is Microsoft's cheapest o/s ever, in real terms.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing around with the various flavours of
Linux, and I've managed to convert quite a few of my clients to use it
for their workstations, but in real terms corporates will still require
Microsoft products, and it looks as if that isn't going to change for
quite some time, if ever.
--
Paul-B
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:37:22 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:53:31 +1100, "David Melville"
<...@exemail.com.au
David, it is one thing to need or want Linux, but do not fall into the
trap that many Linux users do. You do NOT need to bash MS at every
opportunity just because you run Linux. In addition and contrary to
popular belief, running Linux does not emasculate you, will not
increase your penis size and won't make you cooler than a Windows
user.
HTH.
Hm.. come to think, if i was to go on the town, i reckon my chances of
chatting up a girl with MS Office and Vista talk would be better than
your 'wanna see my Linux box ?' pick up line. ;-)
--
Regards, Frank
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:34:02 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
a) emasculate means to weaken or remove masculinity, not add it;
b) note what he was responding to;
c) if someone likes linux, it doesn't mean they're trying to impress you.
Ditto!
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:32:32 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:34:02 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.ukwrote:
You try to think of the right word after a dozen beers in a humid 30+
temperature. Hm, usually i just start slurring words, but this one
totally got away from me. I'll take that on the chin.
Anyway, he knows what i meant. :)
By all means i'm quite happy to be impressed by technology and by
those who can use it well, so i'm not worried about those trying to
impress me with it. I have a Linux box out the back, but sadly not
enough time to really understand it yet.
It's those who start off with "yawn" in response to Windows that will
worry me. Whether Dave is there or not, dunno, that's why i said "not
to fall into that trap", as many do. I've seen enough OS wars(as i'm
sure you have) to know that for a fact and Linux users *of that kind*
are louder in their pointless rubbishing than the other side.
Are we clear ?
--
Regards, Frank
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:31:40 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
Yeuch, I'd move continents if I were you! Can't stand the heat meself.
Hmm, what about the manner and the source of what he was responding
to?
We are clear in that there are far more people out there who fire off
about linux users and their willies at the slightest provocation than
there are actual linux people who fire off about their willies at the
slightest provocation!
Now we're clear ;-)
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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Anonymous Wrote:
In article <op.u20zuwu8h6mygt@david-desktopDavid Melville <...@exemail.com.au
twm
Or if you insist on being new school, FVWM
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:09:45 +0000, mike hunt <...@none.co.uk
i use ubuntu which i think is gnome
have tried suse/red hat etc
prefer ubuntu
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:02:46 +1100, "David Melville"
<...@exemail.com.au
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:24:22 +0000 (UTC), APLer <...@floor.tilde
mike hunt <...@4ax.com:
It's always the top-posters somehow. Sigh.
Ubuntu is a distributor of Linux. X is the GUI *for* unices of which Linux
is one. Gnome is a X window manager.
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On 8 Nov 2009 12:23:02 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Ubunto is Gnome or XFCE or KDE, in fact you can set it up to run
whichever flavour you want at startup. Personally I like XFCE
(Xubuntu), but it's your choice.
--
Paul-B
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:09:30 +1100, "David Melville" <...@exemail.com.au
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:23:02 +1100, Paul-B <...@rasf1.net
Yeah. Just looking for opinions. I've been using the GDM, and found my
feet and love it.
About to upgrade to Karmic when I get back from a week in QLD. I'll sample
it then. I was just wondering if anyone had a view on which was the
"better" DM.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Don't touch me unless you love me.
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:39:01 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
i am hearing reports of problems with the latest buntu so you may want
to wait a few weeks for the bugs to be resolved (something to do with
grub2 )
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 08:45:01 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Alister <...@nospam.com
I've installed it twice on different machines in the last few days
without the slightest hitch, so it's not endemic if there is a
problem, might be a few isolated cases getting all the publicity.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:00:26 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
The reports I've seen suggest the problem is isolated to upgrades rather
than clean installs. In *some* cases, it has problems, others it works
just fine.
I think it's a reflection of how smooth these things are these days that
anyone's upset.
Not that I like Ubuntu, but I can see why it's popular.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:41:40 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Yes I read those reports too, before installing clean upgrades on two
tricky machines, both Apple Mac Minis with core duo or core 2 duo
processors, went in a treat.
Indeed, it's the first time I've installed it on a machine that I'm
going to be using regularly, I'm just getting used to it, mostly
trying it because it's Debian-based. I'm coming from Gentoo which is
getting too much like hard work, although I'm keeping my main work
machines running Gentoo until I decide whether I like Ubuntu or not.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:58:28 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Incidentally why don't you like it? I've only just started using it
so if there's a specific technical issues then I'd be interested to
know, might save me some time ;-) I also have debian on DVD but am
not sure if that's much different to Ubuntu, I know nothing about any
distros other than slackware and gentoo.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:50:37 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
Sorry to anyone not interested in software - stop reading now. There's
nothing of interest here. ;-)
I'm being a bit of a snob, really, but with some real (work) issues.
Ubuntu was originally designed to appeal to home users, and the design
decisions are largely* fine for that market. They, however, have pushed
quite hard into the commercial market, and haven't (yet) convinced me
that they've properly addressed that market.
* 'sudo bash' should be forever banned in every distribution everywhere,
and certainly not encouraged. I won't bore you with why.
Despite that, I am periodically plagued with DIY "experts" who try to
pin me into a corner to explain how Ubuntu is going to save the
universe and how I should migrate everything to it immediately. It used
to be the Debian crowd who would also treat me to the "Not only is Free
Software better than everything, but anyone who uses something non-Free
is a baby-killer" discussion.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a Free Software fan. FSF and others have
undoubtedly changed the world by demonstrating the benefits of
cooperation in software development. I've been using gcc (originally on
VAX, Sun and SGI equipment) since about '90. Back when I was hacking
code regularly, I even contributed patches and got involved. I've met
Richard Stallman, talked one-to one with Eric Raymond, had dinner with
Alan Cox and discussed kernel development with David Miller back when he
wasn't particularly well known even in the Linux community. But I am
also a pragmatist.
I want a system that works, and which does the job. Sometimes, that
means (particularly in the more obscure areas researchers delve into)
using proprietary software and libraries or using binary drivers. I
don't even have a problem with proprietary OSs. In my time, I've used
many. I still do.
So, to get back to Ubuntu... It feels a little like a home edition, no
matter how much they harden it for business. Not like XP Home, but not
really "full fat" either.
For the non-Linux crew: I also have responsibility for a huge number of
Windows systems (mainly currently XP) and MacOSX. For every job,
there's a tool. None of the OSs is "perfect", and even best really does
depend on what you're using it for. Just remember: when all you have is
a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
As to me, I'm a Fedora fan at home. I like having something that's a
little closer to the cutting edge, but I'm not bothered about it working
perfectly. I realise this isn't for most people (any more than Gentoo
is). At work, we played with early "releases" of Linux to see how much
we could do with it, but we didn't do any real work with it until
Slackware was released in mid-93. As functionality improved, we moved
over to Redhat in summer 95 (might have been 96) because we needed
something closer to bleeding edge (particularly hardware support). When
RHL was dropped in 2003, we took a serious look at the options but
(again because of some of the research demands) moved to Fedora (Core).
Last year, we decided that CentOS was good enough and are standardising
on that.
Frankly, pretty much any of them are good enough these days (which
wasn't always the case), but things like Spacewalk makes CentOS
attractive because of the ease of management.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:11:55 +0000, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
On 2009-11-09, Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
No need, I don't like it either, I think it's easy to sort out though,
some quick editing of the groups or PAM files, although where they are
these days I don't know... I tried editing grub.conf recently only to
find that it's now grub.cnf and is auto-generated from
/etc/default/foo/bar/ftang/mcguffin/asdasd.conf every time you boot,
ditto the init.d scripts, can't touch a thing any more without it
changing under your feet ;-) I think that's all debian trickery though.
Yes I've seen that kind of thing, the only reason I'm using
debian-based systems is that it was recommended by some people I know
in my industry and also some commercial packages I'll need to use are
available as debian packages.
This is why I'm fed up with gentoo, if I want to upgrade one package I
frequently have to re-compile a whole load of other unrelated
packages, and for some reason openoffice gets its oar in everywhere
and that takes 12 hours to compile! It gets to the point that when
I'm in a hurry I botch things to make it work, and that just makes
matters far worse.. It was a nice idea but too much effort to keep a
few systems going, and hell when you depend on the machine in order to
pay the mortgage.
Not too bad for me, I don't have multipe machines to admin, well, not
more than about 6 or so, for me it's mostly about 2 laptops, one of
which is running backtrack 4, the other gentoo, while my lounge
machine is the ubuntu testbed right now.
Yes if I had a lot of machines to manage I'd look into it more, but as
I only have a few and am just dipping my toe in the non-gentoo pool, I
thought I'd try the easiest one first ;-)
The professional hacking crowd (of which I'm part) seem to favour
debian variants though so I'll probably stick with one of them.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:02:30 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
Sounds like a plan. :-)
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:36:18 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
I had an IT infrastructure business, in about 04 we were approached by
a business owner who was concerned about productivity. After hours we
went in and installed silent monitoring software. A month later the
geeks analysed the results. Astounding stuff, one thing I remember
particularly was that something like half of the time taken to write a
letter was spent formatting it. Some spent hours on screen savers and
desktop images but the biggest waster was internet usage, Comsec was
popular. We then started officially monitoring usage, things improved
but only marginally.
The owner asked us to propose a solution. It was basically using dumb
terminals where for instance once a format for a letter was selected
all the user could do was type text. Not surprisingly the owner has
stuck with the system and is smiling all the way to the bank. There
are two Windows PC's in the lunch room for staff usage, we get many
support calls for those but the rest of the network had only one call
and that was up till June 07, when I was sold most of my shares.
It may not surprise you that despite offering other businesses that
system I believe we still only have the one of them.
A couple of interesting facts. We deployed XP after SP2, why?
Training, non required. Support, was also less because most had XP at
home.
Also at the last board meeting I was surprised that Win7 was
considered ready for deployment once it could establish that most
users would be familiar with it. And! that was expected within 12
months as XP users were keen to upgrade their "old" systems and Vista
users were mostly unhappy and would embrace the "fast new Windows 7"
Another proposal put to us was to persuade clients to give their
employees a copy of Windows 7 for their home PC's, the cost was
perhaps cheaper than equivalent training. There are a few hurdles with
the idea but it does have merit. So if you want a copy of Win 7, put
the idea to your boss ;-)
beers,
build
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:48:03 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
I have used both buntu & fedora as well ass a few others
Linux is linux, its just the choice of admin tools that change &
sometime the default locations of certain files
if you have been using Slak & gentoo then I don't think any of the user
friendly distro's should bother you.
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:52:41 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Alister <...@nospam.com
You're right for the home user, but it gets trickier when you're
managing hundreds of systems. Then there are issues which can make one
distribution more attractive than another. Equally, there are issues
which might bug a home user which are easily addressed in a business
setting.
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:36:51 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
but knowing the basic underlying concepts of the OS should make it
relatively simple to move from one distro to another
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:46:35 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
just to try to drag this thread on topic
does any one know what os any of the F1 teams are using in their design
centres (i know where my money is)
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:55:26 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 12, 9:46 am, Alister <...@nospam.com
Yes, I have a limited knowledge of what is used.
Desktops are Windows, I think that is across the boards.
Other stuff varies greatly.
One teams run race applications run in a nix like environment (debian)
but that is not universal. I believe another team uses windows. I'm
told the reason for Debian is speed but the team that reputedly runs
windows is also a team renown for astute, fast decisions ... so.
Design is done in MS Windows.
Simulators are nix.
At the end of the day it comes down to training. If you know an OS or
App, then why use up valuable time re-training unless the rewards are
there, which is not often. My own opinion is that interactive stuff is
better in Windows and dumb (fed info) is better in nix becuase it is
faster. The difference is that most people are used to inputting in
windows and will input quicker.
beers,
build
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:57:58 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 12, 10:06 am, Ian Rawlings <...@tarcus.org.uk
Surprisingly, I don't think sun is used anywhere but on second
thoughts .... it's server stuff ... hmmm.
beers,
build
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:38:38 -0000, "For Sure" <...@y.z
"David Melville" <...@david-desktop...
For people who would rather spend more time on running programs than
fiddling around with the OS, then the question is
Windows or OSX?
For me its Windows, especially 7 which makes everything Linux look really
old fashioned, which, of course, it is.
FS
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On 9 Nov 2009 19:00:48 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Eh?
Fiddling round with operating systems?
You obviously haven't installed and/or used Ubuntu.
Put disk in drive, boot, follow the prompts, 20 minutes later a full
up-and-working system, including applications (OpenOffice, etc).
All printers recognised, all hardware recognised, nic installed and
Firefox up-and-running as it should.
Where's the fiddling around there?
--
Paul-B
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:03:09 +0000 (UTC), Mark <...@not.welcome.here.ac.uk
Paul-B <...@rasf1.net
Don't feed the fool^Wtroll.
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:45:07 -0000, "For Sure" <...@y.z
"Paul-B" <...@mid.individual.net...
Not so. I currently have it installed on a Toshiba laptop, fortunately dual
booting with Windows. I also have Linux running on my XBox (for XBMC) and my
NSLU2. I also got OSX running on my PC after a bit of fiddling. I installed
Ubuntu and also Xubuntu on my (old) laptop as I hoped it would be faster
than Windows, it wasn't. In fact the graphics were considerably slower,
probably due to the lack of optimised drivers.
Almost but not quite, and its that final 5-10% of functionality that takes
hours of your time. eg. I spent ages trying to get my canon printer to work
properly, eventually getting fed up and giving up.
Even our resident Linux expert at work spends hours constantly updating the
servers we have whereas it is more or less automatic on the Windows servers
(which we've never had a problem with in years).
Linux in its current form is fine for a cheap servers and people who *like*
spending a lot of time fiddling around with the command line, but it is
nowhere near ready for the mainstream desktop market, and with Windows 7
about now, Ubuntu looks miles behind in terms of user friendliness.
FS
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:24:21 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
Oh, and why is the least popular server on the internet Windows?
The most popular by machine being linux and by hits is Sun?
Hmmm, I wonder.
beers,
build
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On 10 Nov 2009 10:02:40 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Well, on my network of 4 PC's Xubuntu installed on one of them in about
20 minutes, picked up my wired network, all my hardware, my
laser-printer (Laserjet 5si), my inkjet printer (Epson stylus photo
R285). Haven't yet set up wireless on that particular machine, but an
earlier install of Gutsy Gibbon picked up and installed my Belkin USB
nic without any intervention by myself.
As for not being ready for the mainstream desktop market, I have it
installed on around 25-30 desktops in 5 different locations without any
problems and certainly no tinkering. If it would run the latest
flavours of Autocad and Photoshop I'd have it on a further 14 desktops
at least.
I'm running Windows 7 on my main PC, I love it and will be installing
it at some of my clients, but if you are going to be running a basic
workstation with Microsoft Office Suite alternatives and maybe a few
other pieces of software Ubuntu is a viable, free alternative.
Certainly my users love it.
--
Paul-B
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:37:08 +1100, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
On 10 Nov 2009 10:02:40 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
Sorry to hijack again, but can 7 upgrade from XP and Vista directly
and if so, what are the chances of it becoming a three headed
haemorrhoid, as previous upgrades used to do(as opposed to clean
installs) ?
--
Regards, Frank
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:51:43 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 10, 9:37 pm, Frank Adam <...@notthis.optushome.com.au
Short answer, No.
Long answers = http://www.google.com "uprade from XP to Windows 7"
Oh.
From Vista, yes.
However, 20 years of upgrading tells me to never, ever upgrade. Always
clear install.
If you look around you'll find out how to setup a system so that it
can be clean installed without losing your data or settings.
build
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On 10 Nov 2009 11:56:49 GMT, "Paul-B" <...@rasf1.net
No. IMO it's always better to do a clean install, anyway. However there
are a couple of other options open. You can install Win 7 to dual-boot
with your XP, which is easy to set up.
If you install Win 7 on the same drive the setup program will,
supposedly, save all your old data etc. into a folder on your root
drive.
--
Paul-B
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:18:35 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 10, 8:45 pm, "For Sure" <...@y.z
Well, you gave away the bullshit there. My business runs many hundreds
of servers of varying sorts, the simple economics of maintenance
requires almost all to be linux. The Windows servers are almost
intolerable, the updates take hours and always require rebooting and
tweeks, they are down for a minimum of hours and sometimes days.
Remote access is fraught with security problems. On the other hand a
simple and remote "apt-get update" and a few seconds later, with no
tweeks the linux server is updated, no reboot or tweeks required.
Perhaps I could provide your employer with a reliable network? or
perhaps your employer needs new linux experts.
beers,
build
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:20:07 -0000, "For Sure" <...@y.z
"build" <...@f1g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 10, 8:45 pm, "For Sure" <...@y.z
of servers of varying sorts, the simple economics of maintenance
requires almost all to be linux. The Windows servers are almost
intolerable, the updates take hours and always require rebooting and
tweeks, they are down for a minimum of hours and sometimes days.
Remote access is fraught with security problems. On the other hand a
simple and remote "apt-get update" and a few seconds later, with no
tweeks the linux server is updated, no reboot or tweeks required.
That's not been my experience, if it was that simple you wouldn't need any
IT support people.
perhaps your employer needs new linux experts.
Maybe. Personally I think upgrading too often (or perhaps too soon) can
cause more problems, but then again postponing it can cause it to be a
bigger job when you eventually bite the bullet.
FS
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On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:29:46 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 10, 10:20 pm, "For Sure" <...@y.z
Well, while I'd like none we do still require a few, too many.
Remember we provide fixed price networks so the target is as few
support calls as possible and as little training as we can get away
with. It's a simple formula and is proving very popular.
I was the employer and still hold shares, they, the geeks are the best
and are paid as such because they made me wealthier. If you are in
Aust contact me, we can reduce the cost of your IT infrastructure
dramatically.
Tis not that simple, so true and false. Upgrading is never a good
idea. Clean installing a newer OS can reap benefits but needs
evaluation.
beers,
build
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On 10 Nov 2009 12:02:02 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
"Paul-B" <...@mid.individual.net:
Maybe it's not the OS as such, but all of the things you do with your PC.
Email, newsreaders, browsers, text editors, word processors and
spreadsheets, games, audio / video / image editing and conversion, backup
solutions, syncing your devices, remotely accessing my PC from work (we
don't allow remote desktop..) and so many other things that you may find
you can't get or don't like the implementation of.
It all costs time and in many cases isn't possible or to the same quality
you want.
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was freedom is just greed."
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:55:44 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 10, 12:02 pm, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
All that is easily done on a nix like system, particularly remote
access is easier and far more secure.
beers,
build
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:49:17 +0000, Alister <...@nospam.com
that may have been true 3 or 4 years ago but not now.
email - Thunderbird no problem there
news reader thunderbird, no problem there
Browser - Firefox No problem there
Tex editors - too many to mention
Word processors - Open Office No problem there
Spreadsheets - Open Office No problems there
Games- not my thing but there are some good ones
Backup solutions - Too many to mention
Video editing is a bit weak at the moment
Graphics - GIMP no problem there
Audio - Many options
& in most distros all are either installed as standard or easily added.
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On 12 Nov 2009 11:25:24 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
Alister <...@newsfe25.ams2:
Prefer Outlook (yes - seriously)
Prefer Xnews
True.
I expect so..
Maybe - but I tire of learning the differences with new versions let
alone alternatives.
Big negative..!
But I'd have to relearn them
It's all about time and what we are happy with and prefer. I don't want
to spend days searching for, installing, learning and working around
differences of so many apps. Just been there and done that and the
novelty has gone. And I think it's a line of resistance that exists for
many. And then of course there is the size of the user base, the bigger
the better when soemthing goes wrong so you can find a solution.
But of course ymmv :)
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was freedom is just greed."
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:10:59 -0800 (PST), build <...@gmail.com
On Nov 12, 11:25 am, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
Seriously? Nah, I'd agree if you said "lazily" but seriously there is
no excuse except must due to bosses.
Try Crimson, I like it.
Why, the best games are nix only, although I'm repeating what I'm told
as I do not play games.
If you are a real, real, geek go nix, if not mac rules.
It comes down to the returns. If it (whatever you do) is worth the
effort, make it and reap the rewards. But, if you use word and excel
and you are stuck with those at work then why spend the time learning
a new OS and app when you could employ that time being productive?
beers,
build
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On 12 Nov 2009 12:50:41 +1100, CatharticF1 <...@gmail.com
build <...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
Ran a game developer for over 4 years.
Trust me - they are _wrong_!
I probably spend most time in my browser, text editor, email and games.
But it's the little things - simple now - but that suddenly require a
disproportionate amount of effort. Like converting a movie to play on my
iPod to my TV and stay aspect correct. I have a solution for that (which
varies between my 5G iPod and iPhone incidentally) and I don't want to
have to start the R&D again. And that's just an example of course.
Love my current newsreader and how it highlights parts of threads in
reply to my posts. Last time I looked I couldn't find that elsewhere?
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was freedom is just greed."
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