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On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:01:53 +0200, "gogu" <...@Greci.com
Ο "pavel" <...@e5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Nope, you are applying the much dear to you commies censorship, PERIOD!
F***G LIAR!
Where it says that "negotiations will begin without anybody to ask the
Greeks"?!
As you may know -but I doubt it as you are nothing but an ignorant
commie...- a *report* does not necessarily means *application*!
A report is a report, a wish and *NOT* a *decision*!
Nobody can force an EU country not to use its right to veto!
F****G LYING commie!
Good, so enjoy it until you understand what this "report" means;-)
It happened before, will happen again!
Do you really think that Greece will not use the veto against your criminal
country?!
Wishful thinking my dear commie LIAR, wishful thinking;-)
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On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:44:50 +0200, "Panayiotis" <...@hotmail.com
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
"pavel" <...@e5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On 10 Март, 14:12, "gogu" <...@Greci.com
I cannot understand why are you so agitated. I have citated the
interesting
for me part of the article and have given the Internet address for all
that are
interested from the full text.
The IMPORTANT thing here is that the negotiations would begin without
anybody to asks the Greeks: " EU accession talks
with Skopje this year irrespective of whether FYROM’s name dispute
with Greece is resolved or not." Also "backed by an overwhelming
majority of deputies, proposes FYROM’s accession to the EU and NATO
and calls on Greece to waive its right to veto Skopje, arguing that
FYROM’s membership of both international
alliances would boost stability in the Balkans."
Complete defeat for Greece in the European Parliament! Now
Greece has to use the veto AGAINST the will of the other members
of the EU, or better to "to waive its right to veto Skopje".
============================================
Pavel,
"Solon, Solon" said Kroisos, while his Persian capturers were ready to burn
him alive.
He remembered Solon, the Athenian, saying: Midena pro tou telous makarize
(Count no man happy until he be dead).
In other words, and in the above cited case: Do not rejoice until the final
signatures are put on paper!
Excerpt from Wikipedia:
"Solon's travels finally brought him to Sardis, capital of Lydia. According
to Herodotus and Plutarch, Solon met with Croesus and gave the Lydian king
advice, which however Croesus failed to appreciate until it was too late.
Croesus had considered himself to be the happiest man alive and Solon had
advised him, "Count no man happy until he be dead", because at any minute,
fortune might turn on even the happiest man and make his life miserable. It
was not till after his kingdom had been taken from him by Cyrus, the
Persian, that Croesus acknowledged the wisdom of Solon's advice".
Panayiotis
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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:46:01 -0700 (PDT), ADR <...@yahoo.com
On Mar 10, 5:52 am, pavel <...@yahoo.com
Hmmm, pavel, you tend to over-interpret. The European Parliament has
only an advisory role. The executive teams are the councils of
ministers and the commisioners. The European Parliament passes
hundreds of resolutions that nobody pays any attention. And because
nobody pays any attention, Greece has not provided any information;
then a Dutch EMP pushes through a resolution that sounds good and nice
(who wants to be a grouch??). I agree with the article that the
Foreign Ministry has totally neglected the European Parliament but,
hey, this is why I do not believe any more in "constructive
engagement". The more a dispute goes critical, the least possible it
is to produce a "feeling good" resolution that nobody has any
objection with.
As the temperature of our dispute rises, the information on this
dispute is going to be more and more clear and with Gruevski in power
in FYROM, we are going to get a lot of positive points. Actually,
Gruevski is the Greek ace in the sleeve!!! We need more airports
being named "Alexander the Great" and more freeways being named
"Philip", The question to ask is if Mr. Gruevski is the pay of the
Greek intelligence services!!! We should cut him a pension!!
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:34:09 -0700 (PDT), pavel <...@yahoo.com
On 16 Март, 02:46, ADR <...@yahoo.com
Mr Nikola Gruevski has ever a good attitude towards Greece. Every year
around August 15th, his father Talo Gruevski is visiting their family
house in Achlada (Krushovene), Florina (Lerin) district. Also he
demonstrated his taste to the Greek folklore, when he ordered Greek
music to be played in the gathering for the birth of his daughter. He
would be very glad to find a common acceptable solution for the name
issue. So that indeed he is doing a good job for both countries.
On the other hand "EuP pushes on launch of EU accession talks
with Skopje this year irrespective of whether FYROM’s name dispute
with Greece is resolved or not." If those accession talks begin this
year, than that fact would be a great victory over the Greek
stubbornness not to accept the name, that a country has chosen for
itself, based its decision on the artefacts digged in
the same that country.
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:54:34 -0700, "Spirit of Truth" <...@prodigy.net
"pavel" <...@l39g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On 16 ????, 02:46, ADR <...@yahoo.com
Mr Nikola Gruevski has ever a good attitude towards Greece. Every year
around August 15th, his father Talo Gruevski is visiting their family
house in Achlada (Krushovene), Florina (Lerin) district. Also he
demonstrated his taste to the Greek folklore, when he ordered Greek
music to be played in the gathering for the birth of his daughter. He
would be very glad to find a common acceptable solution for the name
issue. So that indeed he is doing a good job for both countries.
On the other hand "EuP pushes on launch of EU accession talks
with Skopje this year irrespective of whether FYROM's name dispute
with Greece is resolved or not." If those accession talks begin this
year, than that fact would be a great victory over the Greek
stubbornness not to accept the name, that a country has chosen for
itself, based its decision on the artefacts digged in
the same that country.
................................................................................ .....................
................................................................................ .....................
Sorry, Pavel, it wont work. You can call Fyrom Dime Republic
if you want since ancient Macedonian territory was 5% in Fyrom
and 95% in Greece. By the way, since they were all Greeks
anyway what have they got to do with Fyrom anyway?
:)
Spirit of Truth
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:04:35 -0700 (PDT), ADR <...@yahoo.com
On Mar 16, 2:34 am, pavel <...@yahoo.com
Pavel, you and I know that these decisions are taken by the council of
ministers, not by the European Parliament.
By the way, are you really serious??? You believe that the title of
the state "Republic of Macedonia" has some validity because some
ancient Macedonian trinkets were found there? On this case,
Afghanistan can make a better case, right? Or even Iran, Iraq, Egypt
and Syria! All of these countries have far more Macedonian trinkets
and ruins than FYROM!!! Come on, get serious!!! You know that the
name of the country has nothing to do with the Bitola trinkets. Let's
have a serious discussion, not a funny one!!
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On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:38:32 -0700 (PDT), pavel <...@yahoo.com
On 17 Март, 00:04, ADR <...@yahoo.comYes, but the the Council of Ministers has to follow the
recommendations of
the European Parliament.
Please, do not try to diminish the significance of the artefacts in
Bitola. It is an archeological site under protection of UNESCO, and
many Greek archeologists have worked there. A lot of interesting
artefacts, including the "star of Philip" - an emblem of the older
flag
of the country. But why your arguments do not hold water. Because
Afghanistan, Syria, etc are not the initial native lands of the
ancient
Macedonians, there are a lot of artefacts of the towns that they have
built under their conquest. But Bitola is on the aboriginal, native
land
of the ancient Macedonians, and even the town has been built
personally by Philip II - see for example what is written for the town
from
Greek historians.
The same reason, as with the name "Belgium" - a part of nowadays
Belgium
is on the place inhabited by the ancient tribe of Belges. The
population
of Belgium has nothing common with the ancient Belges, only they
are inhabiting part of the territory that in ancient times has been
inhabited by the Belges.
Also the official name of your country "Hellenic republic" comes from
"Hellenes" - name of the tribe (also called "Myrmidones") settled in
Thessalian Phthia, led in the Iliad by Achilles. [see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks
Alexander the Great is the first leader who officially use the terms
Hellas and Panhellenic League (league of all Greek tribes except for
the Lacedaemonians) when he began his military campaign against the
Persian rulers of the Greek city-states of Asia Minor (Ionia) to
revenge their ancestors. Within the sphere of influence in the
territories conquered by Alexander the Great and subsequently
hellenized as well as in Hellenistic Judea a Greek was anyone who had
a proper Greek education (i.e. culture). So that the name comes from a
small area in Thessaly, but it became common name for the whole of
your country.
So that it is not impossible the state with capital Skopje to be
called
"Republic of Macedonia" after a small territory around Bitola (as in
the case with Hellenic republic), and in spite that the population is
not
connected with the ancient Macedonians (as in the case with Belgium).
Here the question is to overcome the opposition of Greece, that
evidently
feels itself (without any reason) in some degree endangered in the
future.
In order to solve that dispute, more confidence has to be introduced
between both countries, and for that reason more friendly relations
are
needed.
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On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:34:00 -0700 (PDT), ADR <...@yahoo.com
On Mar 17, 4:38 am, pavel <...@yahoo.com
It takes those recommendations under consideration but it does not
have to abide by them. On the daily basis, there are dozens such
recommendations by the EP. Nobody takes all this too seriously.
Listen, there were dozens of civic centers throughout Macedonia.
Making too much about a minor outpost of the Macedonian state where a
few veterans were settled by Philip II, is ridiculous and funny. I
guess, that on the same rationale, Poland can rename itself "Germany"
since the ancestral German lands of Silesia lie within its borders.
But the Poles have enough self-respect not to do this and not to try
to appropriate anybody's history because some castles and towns lie
withn their territories. It is all an issue of self-respect and
respect for one's neighbors. Let's not even count the fact that
virtually all the cities of ancient Macedonia lie within the borders
of the province of Macedonia including its three capitals (Aegae,
Pella, Thessaloniki), its religious center (Dion) and many of its
other important centers (Philippi, Amphipolis, Methone, Olynthus,
Potidea, Stageira, etc, etc).
As for the "Macedonian starburst" nobody knows what it is and it is
not. It is probably just a decorative element. The main symbol of
Macedonian royalty was the eagle (because of the connection with
Zeus). Countless coin issues bear this and none bears this starbust.
So, place no importance to this. Heraclea Lynkestis was just a mere
village in classical antiquity. It became a more important center
when Via Egnatia was build in Roman times.
This is correct, Pavel, but the Belges are totally extinct. Actually,
Julius Caesar made sure of this. So, if there were any Belges
anywhere else, trust me, the name Belgium would have been a point of
dispute.
This is true, but the name is in common use by the 8th century BCE.
Read your Hesiod. Historians today try to determine how this came to
be. It is not easy to unravel this but whatever the mechanism, the
name was accepted by all the Greeks (Hellenes) because probably of its
"aspirational value". Evidence is that the name was actually used by
those who encountered the Greeks and then entered the Greek
consciousness.
Pavel, all of these are not good examples and here is why: First of
all, "Belgium" was used by those who created this state somewhat
artificially because (a) it coincided with the original home of the
now extinct Belges and because it was an inoffensive term that was
acceptable by the two main ethnic groups: the Flemish and the
Valloons. It was a bit better for the citizens of this state than the
previous terms: Spanish and then Austrian Netherlands. Please observe
that when this state was created, it was not called "The Netherlands" -
despite its then use of the term- because "The Nertherlands" was
already taken.
As for the term "Hellenes", this was a term used by people because
they felt it spoke directly to their identity. As you well know,
Homer's Iliad provided the core identity of classical (and medieval)
Greeks and Achilles is the core hero of the story.
Thus, the term "Macedonia" is neither inoffensive nor connected to an
extinct entity nor does it describe in any way, shape or form the
inhabitants of FYROM (who have nothing in common with the ancient
Macedonians). In addition, it was imposed from above and not through
an oral history process.
I wonder who diggs up these little gems in FYROM. Don't they know any
history??
Pavel, you need to understand one thing and one thing clearly.
Unfortunately, this forum does not allow me to enter anything in
boldface, but consider my emphasis. We cannot, I repeat, we cannot
allow you to monopolize the term Macedonian and we cannot allow the
definition of a "Macedonian" to be dictated by Skopje. It has nothing
to do about any "degree of endangerment in the future" and no
confidence and more friendly relations will help on this core issue.
If FYROM wants to be a good neighbor, it should adopt a
differentiating term for "Macedonia" (Northern, Uppper, Vardar,
Slavic..or what have you) and this issue will die immediately, normal
relations will become the norm and we will all kiss and hug each
other. Again, my emphasis: no Greek government can "sell" or
"negotiate away" the identity of its largest province. And this would
not change whatever FYROM does short of this goal. As long as it
tries to portray itself as the "only Macedonia", no amount of
"friendly relations" would be able to overcome this. Come on, you are
a smart person. Don't you think that I am a proud Macedonian??? Do
you think that I am likely to give this up and allow the world to call
by this name a slavic-albanian-turkish conglomerate to our north???
Would you, in my position, accepted anything else???
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