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Seattle refuses to use salt; roads "snow packed" by design "We
decided not to utilize salt because it's not a healthy addition to Puget
Sound."
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:48:12 -0800 (PST), Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.com
Aww pity da wittle fishies in Puget Sound they don't wike too much
salt. The hell with old people crossing the street in Seattle who
might slip, fall and break something.
Seattle's strategy for clearing roads relies on sand and de-icer, not
salt, which is a more effective method of melting ice and snow.
By Susan Kelleher
Seattle Times consumer affairs reporter
MIKE SIEGEL / THE SEATTLE TIMES
To hear the city's spin, Seattle's road crews are making "great
progress" in clearing the ice-caked streets.
But it turns out "plowed streets" in Seattle actually means "snow-
packed," as in there's snow and ice left on major arterials by design.
"We're trying to create a hard-packed surface," said Alex Wiggins,
chief of staff for the Seattle Department of Transportation. "It
doesn't look like anything you'd find in Chicago or New York."
The city's approach means crews clear the roads enough for all-wheel
and four-wheel-drive vehicles, or those with front-wheel drive cars as
long as they are using chains, Wiggins said.
The icy streets are the result of Seattle's refusal to use salt, an
effective ice-buster used by the state Department of Transportation
and cities accustomed to dealing with heavy winter snows.
"If we were using salt, you'd see patches of bare road because salt is
very effective," Wiggins said. "We decided not to utilize salt because
it's not a healthy addition to Puget Sound."
By ruling out salt and some of the chemicals routinely used by
snowbound cities, Seattle has embraced a less-effective strategy for
clearing roads, namely sand sprinkled on top of snowpack along major
arterials, and a chemical de-icer that is effective when temperatures
are below 32 degrees.
Seattle also equips its plows with rubber-edged blades. That minimizes
the damage to roads and manhole covers, but it doesn't scrape off the
ice, Wiggins said.
That leaves many drivers, including Seattle police, pretty much on
their own until nature does to the snow what the sand can't: melt it.
The city's patrol cars are rear-wheel drive. And even with tire
chains, officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according
to a West Precinct officer.
Between Thursday and Monday, the city spread about 6,000 tons of sand
on 1,531 miles of streets it considers major arterials.
The tonnage, sprinkled atop the packed snow, amounts to 1.4 pounds of
sand per linear foot of roadway, an amount one expert said might be
too little to provide effective traction.
"Hmmm. Six thousand tons of sand for that length of road doesn't seem
like it's enough," said Diane Spector, a water-resources planner for
Wenck Associates, which evaluated snow and ice clearance for nine
cities in the Midwest.
Spector and snow-control experts in four cities said sand is typically
mixed with salt and used for trouble spots.
"The occasional application of salt is probably not going to have a
lasting effect" on the environment, Spector said. But she cautioned
it's highly dependent on where it's used, how often and how much is
applied.
Seattle's stand against using salt is not shared by the state
Department of Transportation, which has battled the latest storms in
Western Washington with de-icer, 5,800 tons of salt and 11,500 cubic
yards of salt and sand mix, said spokesman Travis Phelps.
Many cities are moving away from sand because it clogs the sewers,
runs into waterways, creates air pollution and costs more to clean up.
Its main attraction is that it typically costs less than one-fifth the
price of salt, according to Spector.
"We never use sand," said Ann Williams, spokeswoman for Denver's
Department of Public Works. "Sand causes dust, and there's also water-
quality issues where it goes into streets and into our rivers."
Instead, it sprays an "anti-icing" agent on dry roads before the snow
falls and then a combination of chemicals to melt the ice.
Cheryl Kuck, spokeswoman for the Portland Bureau of Transportation,
said her city prepared the streets last week with the "anti-icing"
spray. Once the snow started, Portland used chemical de-icers,
followed by plowing with 55 plows and treating trouble spots with sand
and gravel.
Although the city had plowed 29 of its 36 major routes, "nothing is
clear," Kuck said late Monday afternoon. "This is a difficult and
challenging situation that's going to take us a long time to recover
from."
Wiggins, of Seattle's transportation department, said the city's 27
trucks had plowed and sanded 100 percent of Seattle's main roads, and
were going back for second and third passes.
"It's tough going. I won't argue with you on that," he said. But here
in Seattle, "we're sensitive about everything we do that impacts the
environment."
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:37:13 -0800 (PST), St Louis Bob <...@gmail.com
On Dec 24, 6:48 am, Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.comwrote:
There are alternatives...there is sand and there are other chemicals.
The ole farts should not be out on the ice and if they are ,they need
to wear shoes with cleats. I know one gal here who carries here own
little bag on salt with her.
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:00:25 -0800 (PST), Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.com
On 24 déc, 14:37, St Louis Bob <...@gmail.com
What does she do with her bag of salt?
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:57:12 -0800, "Rice Is Expensive" <...@fools.net
"Capitalist Pig" <...@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
"Salt, which is a more effective method of melting ice and snow......"
...and turning new cars into rust buckets.
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:07:16 +0100, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
On 24/12/08 15:57, in article c5s4...@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com,
"Rice Is Expensive" <...@fools.net
It kills vegetation too.
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:51:00 -0800 (PST), Matt <...@sprynet.com
On Dec 24, 8:07 am, Earl Evleth <...@wanadoo.fr
and is totally worthless below 32 degrees. But why let these things
get in
the way of a good story?
matt
(who has lived in colorado for the last 25 years).
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:02:25 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
0 degrees is the coldest or about the coldest you can use salt to
retard freezing. But I think you ignore the fact in the above story
that it was just Seattle that didn't use the de-icers. Note there
are various de-icers. Apparently the other cities were all
reasonable to drive in, even the mountain passes, but get into
Seattle and it's a skating rink. Does that sound reasonable? If
de-icers are so dangerous, shouldn't they be universally banned?
How can using de-icers for one rare event matter when everyone else
is using them?
--
"Oh, I'm broke."
"Take another mortgage, don't give in."
"I thought you were broke. Where did you get all that money from?"
"Don't question me."
"Where did you get it?"
"I borrowed it from the bank."
"Well, you can't do that, that's cheating."
"Listen you little stoat, I own Park Lane, I can borrow as much
bloody money as I like."
~Joanna Lumley and Julia Sawalha, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:48:05 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
As noted in another post, sand is often worse.
--
"Oh, I'm broke."
"Take another mortgage, don't give in."
"I thought you were broke. Where did you get all that money from?"
"Don't question me."
"Where did you get it?"
"I borrowed it from the bank."
"Well, you can't do that, that's cheating."
"Listen you little stoat, I own Park Lane, I can borrow as much
bloody money as I like."
~Joanna Lumley and Julia Sawalha, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:34:35 -0600, "Glenn" <...@gmail.com
"Capitalist Pig" <...@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
I don't know about Seatle, but when the aristocrats tried to pull that
here, they soon changed their minds (the body shops loved it however).
In the winter, I wash my car at every fill-up, but my brother never
washes his car, a 1989 Dodge Omni and it's just starting to show a
little rust. If one wants a better world to live in, just quick
telling everyone what's good for them.
--
Glenn
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:27:40 -0500, "Nixon.D" <...@comcast.net
"Glenn" <...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
========================================================
I must go with the Seattle authorities on this one. Throwing out salt all
over everything is senseless indeed.
It doesn't work in really cold temps; such as parts of Alaska and New
England. It is terribly polluting. It ruins good cars. It's a royal
pain in the ass all ways around and should be prohibited.
People should equip their autos with the proper tires and simply learn to
drive on packed snow and ice. SLOWLY. CAREFULLY. And, Stay off the
roads as much as possible! Except for Police and Emergency workers. . .
Most people run around these metro areas too much in any case; let 'em stay
home and enjoy the fireplace and their spouses and good books! Also, it
wouldn't hurt the kids to miss a day or two of school; they're not teaching
them much at all I've heard from reliable sources.
Dashing forth with giant machines flinging sodium cloride in all directions
is a fools' game if there ever was one !!
It should STOP !!
McDave
==================================================================
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:12:13 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
I just found the following on the same site I got the previous
quote. It says that sand is worse than salt. It also is crazy to
conclude that salt would harm a large *salt* water body of water.
The water already has salt in it.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008554976_roads24m.html
#begin quote
Sand one of Seattle's main weapons against icy streets is more
likely to harm aquatic life than the salt the city refuses to use
out of concern for its environmental effects.
That's the opinion of scientists who have studied the issue and
officials from other cities that use salt to clear icy roads.
Seattle doesn't use salt, an effective ice-buster used widely by
other cities and the state Department of Transportation, because of
environmental concerns.
Since last Thursday, Seattle has sprinkled more than 6,000 tons of
sand on city streets and this week ordered 700 more tons for
storage.
Instead of clearing major roads, Seattle aims to create a
"hard-packed" snow surface suitable for all-wheel and
four-wheel-drive vehicles, and front-wheel-drive vehicles with
chains. The packed snow is then sprinkled with sand and sprayed
with de-icer.
The strategy failed to clear ice from many streets, leaving drivers
struggling to navigate this week. More snow was expected overnight.
Richard Sheridan, of the Seattle Department of Transportation, said
the city is less concerned about sand because the streets are swept
once the snow is gone. Seattle has not used salt since the
mid-1990s, he said, because it corrodes metal bridges and
"degrades" the marine environment. But he could not say which areas
the city is concerned about.
Sheridan said sand is more environmentally friendly than salt, but
scientists say sand damages waterways by clogging the spaces in
gravel where insects live, making it hard for them to cling to
rocks. Insects, a key part of the food chain, are an indicator of
stream health.
Melting snow dilutes salt
Salt is less an issue because melting snow dilutes it, according to
two scientists who studied effects of road salting on aquatic life.
"In general, what my colleagues have found, and I have found, is
that sand actually has a greater impact, at least on stream
systems," said University of Dayton (Ohio) professor Eric Benbow,
an aquatic ecologist. "Sand's the problem, as much as people don't
want to recognize it."
Canadian studies on road salting in the late 1990s found potential
impacts on groundwater, roadside plants and creatures in streams
near roads where large amounts of salt were used.
advertising
In a place such as Seattle, where salt is used infrequently, Benbow
said he couldn't imagine the concentrations getting high enough to
do any harm.
Doug Myers, of the environmental group People for Puget Sound, said
salt on city streets would not likely impact saltwater in the
Sound. He said he is concerned about the impact on creeks that feed
the Sound because they may contain species sensitive to salt or
creatures already compromised by toxic chemicals. The group has not
taken a position on the use of sand, he said.
Seattle's aversion to salt is shared by Bellevue and Spokane, which
use chemical de-icers.
Judy Johnson, Bellevue's street-maintenance superintendent, said
the city used nothing to clear icy streets for a while. But the
streets were too slick, so the city started using calcium chloride,
which contains a rust inhibitor to protect cars.
"We needed something in the toolbox for ice, for safety reasons,"
Johnson said, noting the decision to use chemicals was driven in
part by concerns about the harm from sand.
"It's a balancing act," she said. "You don't want to use a lot of
any of this stuff. It's all got environmental effects."
Tacoma uses a saltwater brine before and after it snows, then
follows up with a mixture of salt and sand. It has used 2,000 tons
of the salt and sand mixture already this year.
Environmental concerns about salt haven't garnered a lot of
attention in Tacoma, but community-relations manager Rob
McNair-Huff said sand is actually of larger concern. "It both clogs
up the drainage systems and can be damaging as far as the habitats
of macroinvertebrates [insects] and salmon," he said.
Everett has tried several products, but its standby is an 8-to-1
mix of sand and salt, said Kate Reardon, the city's spokeswoman.
Since the city's drainage is treated in combined sewers or
detention ponds, it doesn't drain directly to the Sound, she said.
Vancouver, B.C., also uses salt and sand.
Decisions about snow clearance are influenced as much by social,
financial and political concerns as by science, said Mark Devries,
chairman of the winter-maintenance committee for the American
Public Works Association, a professional organization.
Budgets play big role
"We're driven by our budgets, we're driven by the level of service
we're expected to give and we're driven by what's available to us
in our areas," said Devries, the maintenance supervisor for McHenry
County, Ill.
Professor Wilfrid Nixon, a winter-highway-maintenance expert at the
University of Iowa College of Engineering, said salt is the best
ice-buster around and that using it should be weighed against the
environmental costs of other measures.
Plows burn more fuel when they have to plow more, and accidents
caused by icy roads have environmental consequences, too, he said.
"Every crash in the winter is an environmental disaster," Nixon
said. "You have spills of engine oil, gas, coolant. ... It may not
be hundreds of miles of road, but the effect is intensely local."
#end quote
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:07:19 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
De-icer is commonly used in mountain passes and in the other cities
in the area. It worked well according to reports. Obviously what
Seattle did did not work very well at all.
So for a once in a decade ice storm, people in Seattle should all
be driving around all the time with studded tires? Isn't that
worse?
So the whole country should just stop for a week? It snows, you
clear the roads, people continue their lives.
NaCl is used because it is dirt cheap. But it's hardly the only
salt that is available, e.g. CaCl. Note that this would be used for
an entire winter in the infra example. How can the one time use in
Seattle harm the Puget Sound, which must be zillions of gallons, if
the constant use is diluted enough in the mountains by simple run
off?:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004291523_treekill19m.html
#begin quote
A chemical used to melt ice on Washington roads is damaging tens of
thousands of trees along the state's mountain passes.
The de-icer, calcium chloride, is a form of salt that temporarily
damages some trees but doesn't kill any, according to the state
Department of Transportation. The phenomenon, needle browning, will
be more evident in pine and fir through the passes this spring
after a brutal winter.
However, Jim Hatfield, a forest pathologist with the
Wenatchee-Okanogan National Forest, says some trees die from
exposure to the de-icer. Hatfield said his agency hasn't formally
studied needle browning but looked into changes in trees near roads
where de-icer started being used almost exclusively four years ago.
"I would definitely say it's something we should be looking into
more in depth," Hatfield said.
Doug Pierce, environmental-operations manager with the
Transportation Department, said calcium chloride can "burn"
roadside trees but that damage is minimal and trees recover in the
summer.
The department also says it tests for chlorides in soil and creeks
near roads and has not found elevated levels. Annual precipitation,
including melting snow, provides adequate dilution to prevent
buildup, according to an October department publication on needle
browning.
Earlier this year, wildlife officials were concerned that road salt
and de-icer were disorienting finches and other small, seed-eating
birds that ingest them as they peck for grit. That, in turn, made
them roadkill when they were hit by snowplows and other vehicles
during the winter.
The U.S. Forest Service is not studying the browning phenomenon and
is not asking the Transportation Department to change its
practices.
#end quote
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:20:33 -0500, "Nixon.D" <...@comcast.net
You're RIGHT !!! STOP the use of chemicals to try to melt snow; they
don't work well in any case. And, when it gets really cold they don't work
at all. Except for Police and Emergency folks it wouldn't hurt most
people to take a few days "Quiet Time" and use it to read and contemplate
and think how they're going to handle this upcoming 2nd Great Depression.
We will be able to give 'em some suggestions from our experiences in the
"old days".. !!!
McD.DaddyTh'Dave;OKIEAtLargeInMcMerryland
====================================================
"Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk...
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:35:34 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Stop top posting.
I hadn't noticed that they didn't work well.
If everyone takes a week off, that will make the recession worse.
Put all the salt miners out of work, good plan.
--
"Oh, I'm broke."
"Take another mortgage, don't give in."
"I thought you were broke. Where did you get all that money from?"
"Don't question me."
"Where did you get it?"
"I borrowed it from the bank."
"Well, you can't do that, that's cheating."
"Listen you little stoat, I own Park Lane, I can borrow as much
bloody money as I like."
~Joanna Lumley and Julia Sawalha, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:54:57 -0500, "Nixon.D" <...@comcast.net
in message news...@yahoo.co.uk...
I will post in any fashion I wish thank you......
Then you have not experienced driving in places where it gets REALLY cold,
i.e., sub-zero temps.
Salt doesn't work at those temps.
It's more than a "recession". It is a financial melt-down; much more like
a Depression. And, also, most people should take time out to study and
learn how to cope with being poor because it looks like the One Worlder,
GlobalVillage, UnlimitedTolerance, Multicultural, folks will finally reach
their goal of bringing us down to TurdWorld level !! Think about that !
That salt mining is all done by machine these days. Or at least it SHOULD
be. . . . . .
McD.DaddyTh'Dave;OKIEAtLargeInMcMerrylandWithMerryChristmasInMyHeart
================================================================
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:30:04 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
Do you also drive on the opposite side of the road that is the
convention in your area?
Do you think that it is "really cold" in Seattle?
You mean Liberals.
You mean the machine are controlled by robots? Is the governor of
California a Terminator?
--
"Oh, I'm broke."
"Take another mortgage, don't give in."
"I thought you were broke. Where did you get all that money from?"
"Don't question me."
"Where did you get it?"
"I borrowed it from the bank."
"Well, you can't do that, that's cheating."
"Listen you little stoat, I own Park Lane, I can borrow as much
bloody money as I like."
~Joanna Lumley and Julia Sawalha, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 04:04:36 -0500, "Nixon.D" <...@comcast.net
"Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
===================================================
Not yet maybe, but have you never heard of this Global Cooling that might be
going on??
It was 16 deg. in Wash., D. C. a few nights back ! Yes, it was.....
People in places with moderate climates like Seattle, should take off from
their normal activities and, when the opportunity presents itself, enjoy the
snowfall instead of jumping into their autos and racing about as they
normally do. The same is true of the Baltimore/Wash. Metro. Area. The
U.S. Congress could declare "snowdays" and have snowball fights up and down
the national mall and PA. Avenue ! What a scene!! Live Media coverage
would be done by NPR's Dihaa - - a a a n Rheeeeeeem, KojoNumbnuts, the
spitting/sputtering ChrisMathews, and the stammering/stuttering RushLimbo !!
Is this a great country or what ????? !!!!!
Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night
McD.ofMerryland
==============================
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:44:55 -0500, clams_casino <...@DrunkinClam.com
and the 18 inches of snow we received this past weekend is nearly gone
with a projected 56F to arrive on Saturday here in RI. (It was 60F on
12/15)
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 04:04:36 -0500, "Nixon.D" <...@comcast.netwrote:
Merry Christmas Dave. Have a good day.
And yes, it is a great country.
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:38:35 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
But do you expect them to not be able to drive a week after the
snowfall starts? Because if after that much time the streets still
aren't clear, that's ridiculous.
It has pretty good taste, but it doesn't need more salt.
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:34:35 -0600, "Glenn" <...@gmail.com
Hmmmm ... anyone get a vision of a "bolt-on" snowmobile
conversion for the family car ... a treaded platform-
lookin' thing you just drive up on and lock into ??? :-)
Something idle GM machinists can build ....
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:29:29 -0600, nys999 <...@yahoo.com
b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote in news:4952a815.3684145
@news.west.earthlink.net:
the problem being hitting the clean pavement. Once upon a
time we could buy studded snow tires (tungsten pins). Every
spring, streets had two grooves in each lane.
I've wondered about the long term consequences of all that salt
being dumped on streets that ends up on land or in lakes.
Better snowplowing, municipalities always skimp on this because
the losses, when the snowstorm exceeds their capacity to remove
the snow, don't show up in their budget. Nor does the
damage to cars from road salt.
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:26:16 +0000, "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"
<...@yahoo.co.uk
It should be noted that Seattle doesn't need to dump salt on the
roads all winter, just in select times. Furthermore, the Puget
Sound is *saltwater*. How is dumping a little more NaCl in there
going to hurt anything?
CaCl is routinely used in the mountain passes. If it works there,
why not Seattle?
--
"Oh, I'm broke."
"Take another mortgage, don't give in."
"I thought you were broke. Where did you get all that money from?"
"Don't question me."
"Where did you get it?"
"I borrowed it from the bank."
"Well, you can't do that, that's cheating."
"Listen you little stoat, I own Park Lane, I can borrow as much
bloody money as I like."
~Joanna Lumley and Julia Sawalha, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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Anonymous Wrote:
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:29:29 -0600, nys999 <...@yahoo.com
Snowmobiles CAN be used on pavement - IF you include small
wheels coming out the bottom of the skis. They run OK on
sand/dirt even without the wheels - indeed taking your
snowmobile to the desert has become something of a new
summer sport.
My vision was of a thin contraption that's essentially
the underside of a large snowmobile. The cars tires
provide the motive power to the tread strip, the front
wheels steer the skis. Leave just an inch of the car
wheel hang below the ski level and you're set for
patches of dry pavement. Black ice still poses a
problem though - for wheels OR skis.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any 'friendly'
de-icing agent that's also affordable. This means that
anyone living in the snow belt may have to accept :
1) Being trapped - isolated even from emergency services.
2) Paying HUGE fuel & fix bills for large snowplow fleets.
3) Paying even more for 'friendly' de-icing agents (I seem
to recall that some sugars will do it) or
4) Moving to Texas (Florida & Arizona are kinda maxxed).
None of these options seem like a very acceptable thing
on a mass scale.
Ergo the 'snowmobile' add-on contraption.
And yes, it IS something otherwise idle machinists and
such can build for money. A small GM subassembly plant
could meet demand for customers in 'salt-PC' areas.
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:30:30 -0800 (PST), freeisbest <...@yahoo.com
On Dec 24, 7:48 am, Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.comwrote:
Aw, you're lonely at Christmastime and this is your way of
reaching out to the rest of us, isn't it.
Well, you already know my opinion. Sleep well.
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:05:34 -0800 (PST), Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.com
On 24 déc, 16:30, freeisbest <...@yahoo.com
My wife went out to cash in a loto ticket and while I await her return
I pass the time taunting deranged assholes like YOU who post a lot of
nonsense in Internet news groups.
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:10:31 -0800 (PST), freeisbest <...@yahoo.com
On Dec 24, 6:05 pm, Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.comwrote:
much
....he cried in a quavery voice, then shook his skinny fist at the
mirror. As time passed he had grown more uncertain about life in the
U.S., and had already forgotten about da wittle fishies in Puget
Sound, but he remembered that it was something about salt, and roads,
and assholes, and the need to chew everybody a new one, as often as
possible. 'All right', he thought once again, 'so it wasn't much of a
comeback, but it's good enough.' He couldn't waste time; there were
so many exciting ways to taunt all the assholes out there.
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:18:05 -0800 (PST), Capitalist Pig <...@hotmail.com
On 25 déc, 23:10, freeisbest <...@yahoo.com
You're a congenital asshole ElaineJ, may your progeny all become
homosexual and shame you to death. : - ))
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