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Conservatives Live in a Different Moral Universe

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 04:14:52 -0700, Dan Clore <...@columbia-center.org

News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

[This is long, but potentially very important and useful.--DC]

Conservatives Live in a Different Moral Universe -- And Here's Why It
Matters
By Tom Jacobs, Miller-McCune.com
April 25, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/138303/

Jonathan Haidt is hardly a road-rage kind of guy, but he does get
irritated by self-righteous bumper stickers. The soft-spoken
psychologist is acutely annoyed by certain smug slogans that adorn the
cars of fellow liberals: "Support our troops: Bring them home" and
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

"No conservative reads those bumper stickers and thinks, 'Hmm -- so
liberals are patriotic!'" he says, in a sarcastic tone of voice that
jarringly contrasts with his usual subdued sincerity. "We liberals are
universalists and humanists; it's not part of our morality to highly
value nations. So to claim dissent is patriotic -- or that we're
supporting the troops, when in fact we're opposing the war -- is
disingenuous.

"It just pisses people off."

The University of Virginia scholar views such slogans as clumsy attempts
to insist we all share the same values. In his view, these catch phrases
are not only insincere -- they're also fundamentally wrong. Liberals and
conservatives, he insists, inhabit different moral universes. There is
some overlap in belief systems, but huge differences in emphasis.

In a creative attempt to move beyond red-state/blue-state clichés, Haidt
has created a framework that codifies mankind's multiplicity of
moralities. His outline is simultaneously startling and reassuring --
startling in its stark depiction of our differences, and reassuring in
that it brings welcome clarity to an arena where murkiness of motivation
often breeds contention.

He views the demonization that has marred American political debate in
recent decades as a massive failure in moral imagination. We assume
everyone's ethical compass points in the same direction and label those
whose views don't align with our sense of right and wrong as either
misguided or evil. In fact, he argues, there are multiple due norths.

"I think of liberals as colorblind," he says in a hushed tone that
conveys the quiet intensity of a low-key crusader. "We have finely tuned
sensors for harm and injustice but are blind to other moral dimensions.
Look at the way the word 'wall' is used in liberal discourse. It's
almost always related to the idea that we have to knock them down.

"Well, if we knock down all the walls, we're sitting out in the rain and
cold! We need some structure."

Haidt is best known as the author of The Happiness Hypothesis, a lively
look at recent research into the sources of lasting contentment. But his
central focus -- and the subject of his next book, scheduled to be
published in fall 2010 -- is the intersection of psychology and
morality. His research examines the wellsprings of ethical beliefs and
why they differ across classes and cultures.

Last September, in a widely circulated Internet essay titled Why People
Vote Republican, Haidt chastised Democrats who believe blue-collar
workers have been duped into voting against their economic interests. In
fact, he asserted forcefully, traditionalists are driven to the GOP by
moral impulses liberals don't share (which is fine) or understand (which
is not).

To some, this dynamic is deeply depressing. "The educated moral
relativism worldview is fundamentally incompatible with the way 50
percent of America thinks, and stereotypes about out-of-touch elitist
coastal Democrats are basically correct," sighed the snarky Web site
Gawker.com as it summarized his studies.

But others -- including many fellow liberal academics -- have greeted
Haidt's ideas as liberating.

"Jonathan is a thoughtful and somewhat flamboyant theorist," says Dan
McAdams, a Northwestern University research psychologist and
award-winning author. "We don't have that many of those in academic
psychology. I really appreciate his lively mind."

"Psychology, as a field, has lots and lots of data, but we don't have
very many good new ideas," agrees Dennis Proffitt, chairman of the
University of Virginia psychology department. "They are rare in our
field, but Jon is full of good new ideas."

An unapologetic liberal atheist, Haidt has a remarkable ability to
describe opposing viewpoints without condescension or distortion. He
forcefully expresses his own political opinions but understands how they
are informed by his underlying moral orientation. In an era where
deadlocked debates so often end with a dismissive "you just don't get
it," he gets it.

Four years ago, he recalls, "I wanted to help Democrats press the right
buttons because the Republicans were out-messaging them.

"I no longer want to be a part of that effort. What I want to do now is
help both sides understand the other, so that policies can be made based
on something more than misguided fear of what the other side is up to."

Haidt's journey into ethical self-awareness began during his senior year
of high school in Westchester County, N.Y. "I had an existential crisis
straight out of Woody Allen," he recalls. "If there's no God, how can
there be a meaning to life? And if there's no meaning, why should I do
my homework? So I decided to become a philosophy major and find out the
meaning of life."

Once he began his studies at Yale, however, he found philosophy
"generally boring, dry and irrelevant." So he gradually gravitated to
the field of psychology, ultimately earning his doctorate at the
University of Pennsylvania. There he met several influential teachers,
including anthropologist Alan Fiske and Paul Rozin, an expert on the
psychology of food and the emotion of disgust. Fascinated by Rozin's
research, Haidt wrote his dissertation on moral judgment of disgusting
but harmless actions - a study that helped point the way to his later
findings.

As part of that early research, Haidt and a colleague, Brazilian
psychologist Silvia Koller, posed a series of provocative questions to
people in both Brazil and the U.S. One of the most revealing was: How
would you react if a family ate the body of its pet dog, which had been
accidentally run over that morning?

"There were differences between nations, but the biggest differences
were across social classes within each nation," Haidt recalls. "Students
at a private school in Philadelphia thought it was just as gross, but it
wasn't harming anyone; their attitude was rationalist and harm-based.
But when you moved down in social class or into Brazil, morality is
based not on just harm. It's also about loyalty and family and authority
and respect and purity. That was an important early finding."

On the strength of that paper, Haidt went to work for Richard Shweder, a
cultural anthropologist at the University of Chicago who arranged for
his postdoc fellow to spend three months in India. Haidt refers to his
time in Bhubaneshwar -- an ancient city full of Hindu temples that
retains a traditional form of morality with rigid cast and gender roles
-- as transformative.

"I found there is not really a way to say 'thank you' or 'you're
welcome' (in the local language)," he recalls. "There are ways of
acknowledging appreciation, but saying 'thank you' and 'you're welcome'
didn't make any emotional sense to them. Your stomach doesn't say 'thank
you' to your esophagus for passing the food to it! What I finally came
to understand was to stop acting as if everybody was equal. Rather, each
person had a job to do, and that made the social system run smoothly."

Gradually getting past his reflexive Western attitudes, he realized that
"the Confucian/Hindu traditional value structure is very good for
maintaining order and continuity and stability, which is very important
in the absence of good central governance. But if the goal is
creativity, scientific insight and artistic achievement, these
traditional societies pretty well squelch it. Modern liberalism, with
its support for self-expression, is much more effective. I really saw
the yin-yang."

After returning to the U.S., Haidt accepted a position at the University
of Virginia, where he continued to challenge the established wisdom in
moral psychology. His colleagues were using data from middle-class
American college students to draw sweeping conclusions about human
nature. Proffitt remembers him arguing "with some passion" that they
needed to widen their scope.

"Jon recognizes that diversity is not just the politically correct thing
to do - it's also the intelligent thing to do," he says. "Seeing things
from multiple perspectives gives you a much better view of the whole."

In January 2005 -- shortly after President Bush won re-election, to the
shock and dismay of the left -- Haidt was invited by a group of
Democrats in Charlottesville, Va., to give a talk on morality and
politics. There, for the first time, he explained to a group of liberals
his conception of the moral world of cultural conservatives.

"They were very open to what I was saying," he says. "I discovered there
was a real hunger among liberals to figure out what the hell was going on."

Haidt's framework of political morality can be traced back to a dispute
between two important thinkers: Shweder, who would go on to become his
mentor, and legendary Harvard psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg. In his
1981 volume The Philosophy of Moral Development, Kohlberg essentially
argued that other moral systems are mere stepping-stones on a path that
will eventually lead the entire world to embrace Western humanist
values. Reviewing the book for the journal Contemporary Psychology,
Shweder politely but effectively tore that notion apart.

Citing his extensive research on traditional Indian culture, Shweder
pointed out the inconsistencies and lack of convincing evidence behind
Kohlberg's arguments. Agreeing with philosopher Isaiah Berlin, Shweder
asserted -- and continues to assert -- that a range of ethical systems
have always coexisted and most likely always will. In a 1997 paper
co-written with three colleagues, he broke down primal moral impulses
into a "big three": autonomy, community and divinity.

Haidt found Shweder's ideas persuasive but incomplete. Agreeing with
evolutionary theorist James Q. Wilson, he concluded that any full view
of the origins of human morality would have to take into account not
only culture (as analyzed by anthropologists) but also evolution. He
reasoned it was highly unlikely humans would care so much about morality
unless moral instincts and emotions had become a part of human nature.
He began to suspect that morality evolved not just to help individuals
as they competed and cooperated with other individuals, but also to help
groups as they competed and cooperated with other groups.

"Morality is not just about how we treat each other, as most liberals
think," he argues. "It is also about binding groups together and
supporting essential institutions."

With all that in mind, Haidt identified five foundational moral
impulses. As succinctly defined by Northwestern University's McAdams,
they are:

• Harm/care. It is wrong to hurt people; it is good to relieve suffering.

• Fairness/reciprocity. Justice and fairness are good; people have
certain rights that need to be upheld in social interactions.

• In-group loyalty. People should be true to their group and be wary of
threats from the outside. Allegiance, loyalty and patriotism are
virtues; betrayal is bad.

• Authority/respect. People should respect social hierarchy; social
order is necessary for human life.

• Purity/sanctity. The body and certain aspects of life are sacred.
Cleanliness and health, as well as their derivatives of chastity and
piety, are all good. Pollution, contamination and the associated
character traits of lust and greed are all bad.

Haidt's research reveals that liberals feel strongly about the first two
dimensions -- preventing harm and ensuring fairness -- but often feel
little, or even feel negatively, about the other three. Conservatives,
on the other hand, are drawn to loyalty, authority and purity, which
liberals tend to think of as backward or outdated. People on the right
acknowledge the importance of harm prevention and fairness but not with
quite the same energy or passion as those on the left.

Libertarian essayist Will Wilkinson of the Cato Institute -- one of many
self-reflective political thinkers who are intrigued by Haidt's
hypothesis -- puts it this way: "While the five foundations are
universal, cultures build upon each to varying degrees. Imagine five
adjustable slides on a stereo equalizer that can be turned up or down to
produce different balances of sound. An equalizer preset like 'Show
Tunes' will turn down the bass and 'Hip Hop' will turn it up, but
neither turns it off.

"Similarly, societies modulate the dimension of moral emotions
differently, creating a distinctive cultural profile of moral feeling,
judgment and justification. If you're a sharia devotee ready to stone
adulterers and slaughter infidels, you have purity and in-group pushed
up to 11. PETA members, who vibrate to the pain of other species, have
turned in-group way down and harm way up."

McAdams was first exposed to these ideas about three years ago, when he
heard Haidt speak at a conference. Around that same time, he was
analyzing information he had compiled from interviews with 150 highly
religious middle-aged Americans -- men and women from across the
political spectrum who had described in detail the ways they find
meaning in their lives. Realizing this was an excellent test case for
Haidt's theories, McAdams started comparing the comments of
self-described liberals and conservatives.

Sure enough, "Conservatives spoke in moving terms about respecting
authority and order," he found. "Liberals invested just as much emotion
in describing their commitment to justice and equality. Liberals feel
authority is a minor-league moral issue; for us, the major leaguers are
harm and fairness."

It's hard to play ball when you can't agree who deserves to be a big
leaguer.

Of Haidt's five moral realms, the one that causes the most friction
between cosmopolitan liberals and traditionalist conservatives is
purity/sanctity. To a 21st-century secular liberal, the concept barely
registers. Haidt notes it was part of the Western vocabulary as recently
as the Victorian era but lost its force in the early 20th century when
modern rules of proper hygiene were codified. With the physical
properties of contamination understood, the moral symbolism of impurity
no longer carried much weight.

But the impulse remains lodged in our psyches, turning up in both
obvious and surprising ways. You can hear strong echoes of it when the
pope rails against materialism, insisting we have been put on Earth to
serve a loftier purpose than shopping until we drop. It can also be
found in the nondenominational spiritual belief that we all contain
within us a piece of the divine. (Although it's sometimes used in a
tongue-in-cheek way in our society, the phrase "my body is a temple" is
reflective of the purity/sanctity impulse.)

"The question is: Do you see the world as simply matter?" Haidt asks.
"If so, people can do whatever they want, as long as they don't hurt
other people. Or do you see more dimensions to life? Do you want to live
in a higher, nobler way than simply the pursuit of pleasure? That often
requires not acting on your impulses, making sacrifices for others. It
implies a reverence -- which is a nonrational feeling -- towards human
life."

Consider two letters to the editor in a recent issue of the Ventura
(Calif.) Breeze. The weekly newspaper has been chronicling a controversy
about a 19th-century cemetery that gradually fell into disrepair and,
since the early 1960s, has been used as a dog park. Some descendents of
the people buried there are demanding that it be restored as a proper
burial place.

"Why is there even a debate?" wrote one angry resident. He referred to
the park as "this holy ground" and admonished city officials: "Your
values and judgment need some serious realignment." But a second reader
looked at the controversy from a more practical perspective, noting that
public funds are limited in these tough economic times. Besides, he
added, "the park is full of life now, and I'm sorry if this sounds
harsh, but life is for the living."

Both arguments are rooted in firm moral beliefs. It's just that for the
first correspondent, purity/sanctity is paramount, while for the second
it's of minimal importance.

Not surprisingly, Haidt's data suggests purity/sanctity is the moral
foundation that best predicts an individual's attitude toward abortion.
It also helps explain opposition to gay marriage. "If you think society
is made up of individuals, and each individual has the right to do what
he or she wants if they aren't hurting anybody, it's unfathomable why
anyone would oppose gay marriage," he says. "Liberals assume opponents
must be homophobic.

"I know feelings of disgust do play into it. When you're disgusted by
something, you tend to come up with reasons why it's wrong. But cultural
conservatives, with their strong emphasis on social order, don't see
marriage primarily as an expression of one individual's desire for
another. They see the family as the foundation of society, and they fear
that foundation is dissolving."
Haidt doesn't want religious fundamentalists dictating public policy to
ensure it lines up with their specific moral code. Even if you perceive
purity as a major-league issue, it doesn't have to be on steroids. But
he argues it is important that liberals recognize the strength that
impulse retains with cultural conservatives and respect it rather than
dismissing it as primitive.

"I see liberalism and conservatism as opposing principles that work well
when in balance," he says, noting that authority needs to be both upheld
(as conservatives insist) and challenged (as liberals maintain). "It's a
basic design principle: You get better responsiveness if you have two
systems pushing against each other. As individuals, we are very bad at
finding the flaws in our own arguments. We all have a distorted
perception of reality."

Spend some time reading Haidt, and chances are you'll begin to view
day-to-day political arguments through a less-polarized lens. Should the
Guantanamo Bay prison be closed? Of course, say liberals, whose
harm/fairness receptors are acute. Not so fast, argue conservatives,
whose finely attuned sense of in-group loyalty points to a proactive
attitude toward outside threats.

Why any given individual grows up to become a conservative or a liberal
is unclear. Haidt, like most contemporary social scientists, points to a
combination of genes and environment -- not one's family of origin so
much as the neighborhood and society whose values you absorbed. (Current
research suggests that peers may actually have a stronger impact than
parents in this regard.)

In his quest to "help people overcome morally motivated
misunderstandings," Haidt has set up a couple of Web sites,
http://www.civilpolitics.org and http://www.yourmorals.org. At the latter, you can
take a quiz that will locate you on his moral map. For fun, you can also
answer the questions you think the way your political opposite would
respond. Haidt had both liberals and conservatives do just that in the
laboratory, and the results are sobering for those on the left:
Conservatives understood them a lot better than they understood
conservatives.

"Liberals tend to have a very optimistic view of human nature," he says.
"They tend to be uncomfortable about punishment -- of their own
children, of criminals, anyone. I do believe that if liberals ran the
whole world, it would fall apart. But if conservatives ran the whole
world, it would be so restrictive and uncreative that it would be rather
unpleasant, too."

The concept of authority resonates so weakly in liberals that "it makes
it difficult for liberal organizations to function," Haidt says. (Will
Rogers was right on target when he proclaimed, "I don't belong to an
organized political party. I'm a Democrat.") On the other hand, he
notes, the Republicans' tendency to blindly follow their leader proved
disastrous over the past eight years.

"Look how horribly the GOP had to screw up to alienate many
conservatives," muses Dallas Morning News columnist and BeliefNet
blogger Rod Dreher, an Orthodox Christian, unorthodox conservative and
Haidt fan. "In the end, the GOP, the conservative movement and the
nation would have been better served had we on the right not been so
yellow-dog loyal. But as Haidt shows, it's in our nature."

Like Wilkinson, Dreher doesn't fit cleanly into the left-right spectrum;
he reports that taking Haidt's test (showing he scored high on certain
liberal values but also on some conservative ones) helped him understand
why. He's appreciative of that insight and admiring of the way the
psychologist is able to set aside the inherent prejudice we all share in
favor of our own moral outlook. "It's hard for any of us to get outside
our own heads and perform acts of empathy with people we don't much
like," he notes.

In higher education, as in so many other fields, the best way to
negotiate a pay raise is to get a competing offer. Not infrequently, an
academic will entertain an offer from an institution he or she isn't
really interested in joining, specifically so he can get a salary offer,
take it back to his current employer and demand it be matched.

Haidt found himself in just that situation a few years back. But as he
explained to Proffitt, his department chair, he was uncomfortable with
the notion of lying to gain leverage.

"He told me, 'I know that if I was offered the position, I could get a
big raise here. But I study ethics! I can't do that! That would be
wrong!' He felt he wouldn't be playing fair with the people from the
other university, who were putting out money and effort to recruit him."

"That game is played by a lot of people, but Jon would not," Proffitt
says. "He elected not to do that on purely ethical grounds. That
decision cost him at least $30,000 a year."

But was he guided by the harm/care instinct? Or fairness/reciprocity? Or
did the conservative value of in-group loyalty, which tends to lie
dormant in liberals such as Haidt, emerge under these unusual
circumstances and convince him to be true to his school?

The most likely answer is "all of the above." The point is Haidt
realized the wrongness of that behavior in his gut and acted on instinct.

In making such decisions, he is setting a rigorous moral example for his
son, Max, who turns 3 in July. Haidt would be pleased if, by the time
Max gets to secondary school, the study of ethics is part of the
curriculum. "If I had my way, moral psychology would be a mandatory part
of high-school civics classes, and civics classes would be a mandatory
part of all Americans' education," he says. "Understanding there are
multiple perspectives on the good society, all of which are morally
motivated, would go a long way toward helping us interact in a civil
manner."

Shweder cheers him on in that crusade. "I think this is terribly
important," he says. "People are not going to converge on their
judgments of what's good or bad, or right and wrong. Diversity is
inherent in our species. And in a globalized world, we're going to be
bumping into each other a lot."

Whether they're addressing the U.S. Congress or U.N. General Assembly,
Haidt has astute advice for policy advocates: Frame your argument to
appeal to as many points as possible on the moral spectrum. He believes
President Obama did just that in his inaugural address, which utilized
"a broad array of virtue words, including 'courage,' 'loyalty,'
'patriotism' and 'duty,' to reach out and reassure conservatives."

Haidt notes that the environmental movement was started by liberals, who
were presumably driven by the harm/care impulse. But conservative
Evangelical Christians are increasingly taking up the cause, propelled
by the urge to respect authority. "They're driven by the idea that God
gave man dominion over the Earth, and keeping the planet healthy is our
sacred responsibility," he notes. "If we simply rape, pillage, destroy
and consume, we're abusing the power given to us by God.

"The climate crisis and the economic crisis are interesting, because
neither has a human enemy. These are not crises that turn us against an
out-group, so they're not really designed to bring us together, but they
can be used for that. I hope and think we are ready, demographically and
historically, for a less polarized era."

But that will require peeling off some bumper stickers. Contrary to the
assertion adhered onto Volvos, dissent and patriotism are very different
impulses. But Haidt persuasively argues that both are essential to a
healthy democracy, and the interplay between them -- when kept within
respectful bounds -- is a source of vitality and strength. "Morality,"
he insists, "is a team sport."

Tom Jacobs is a veteran journalist with more than 20 years experience at
daily newspapers. He has served as a staff writer for the Los Angeles
Daily News and the Santa Barbara News-Press. His work has also appeared
in the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune and Ventura County Star.

--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction: _The Unspeakable and Others_
(Wait for the new edition: http://hplmythos.com/ )
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Skipper: Professor, will you tell these people who is
in charge on this island?
Professor: Why, no one.
Skipper: No one?
Thurston Howell III: No one? Good heavens, this is anarchy!
-- _Gilligan's Island_, episode #6, "President Gilligan"



On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 08:28:14 +1000, James A. Donald <...@echeque.com

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 04:14:52 -0700, Dan Clore
<...@columbia-center.org

He demonizes conservatives in a way that is merely more subtle than
the bumper stickers he deplores.

For example, he asserts that conservatives value purity, and liberals
care about harm - but the environmentalist movement intends the death
of billions, and is primarily motivated by concerns about purity.

Similarly, consider the liberal reaction to every socialist famine and
mass murder - liberals DON'T care about harm.

When it comes to malaria, it is human children versus the need of
songbirds for flying insects. Observe which side liberals support.

On every economic issue, on every issue where economists tend to
disagree with liberals, the liberals are worried about purity, the
economists are worried about harm.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:41:09 +0200, Steve Hayes <...@hotmail.com

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 04:14:52 -0700, Dan Clore <...@columbia-center.orgwrote:

I believe Haidt's research is fundamentally flawed.

Haidt stresses loyalty as something valued highly by US conservatives -- but
why is it that US conservatives seem to see words that imply disloyalty, like
"maverick" and "renegade" in a more positive light than others?

For many liberals, or at least people who don't see themselves
self-consciously as "conservatives" in the American sense, these words have
negative connotations, whereas for US conservatives they seem to have positive
connotations.

See:

http://methodius.blogspot.com/search?q=haidt

for more on why I believe Haidt's research to be dangerously flawed.

And I'm an Orthodox Christian and a liberal with anarcho-syndicalist
tendencies.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:21:03 -0400, Anarcissie <...@gmail.com

In article
<...@4ax.com Steve Hayes <...@hotmail.com

I believe Haidt is basically a snake-oil salesman like
Lakoff, so in a sense his "research" is not flawed, but
serves the purpose (of selling books and getting
profitable lecture dates) very well.

In recent years, "Maverick" and "Renegade" have been
names for cars (or SUVs) so I don't think many people,
"liberals" as well as "conservatives", perceive them as
negative, unless you want to say that only conservatives
buy cars.

If this Dreher is a Haidt fan, it shows you can sell
the same snake oil to "conservatives" as well as
"liberals". No surprise there, I guess.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:54:49 -0700, Catherine Jefferson <...@spambouncer.org

Have you by chance read Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars" series, Steve?
("red Mars", "Green Mars", and "Blue Mars") If you haven't, I highly
recommend the books. I think you'll enjoy them. :-)

--
Catherine Jefferson <...@devsite.orgPersonal Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:22:08 +0200, Steve Hayes <...@hotmail.com

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:54:49 -0700, Catherine Jefferson
<...@spambouncer.org

Thanks for the tip - should I send follow-ups to rec.arts.books?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 07:34:19 -0700, Catherine Jefferson <...@spambouncer.org

I'd recommend rec.arts.sf.written. :-)

--
Catherine Jefferson <...@devsite.orgPersonal Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>