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The King's English - ProjectCOVO.com Global Forum
To me, one of Cosby's most blatantly ignorant remarks was about african american language.
It certainly deviates from "proper" english but we all know who dictates what that english is.
I think that anyone with a clear understanding of African American culture will explain to him that having a unque and distinct way of speaking is something that denotes membership in a community that you love.
People are natrually unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor".
I know the obvious response it speaking like whitey is a good way to get whitey to treat you well but I think most people are inclined to say "fukk whitey".
the mighty mos def has a line that sums is up.
I used to speak the king's english
but caught a rash on my lips
so now i chat just like this
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True or False -
1.
It is easier to get a GOOD (good being key word) job if you speak the kings english
2.
Its easier to support and raise your family with a good paying job
Bill was on point about what he said.
I would bet most people here who are calling him out on it are either young (teens) or don't care about the social economic survival of the race or your family.
Speak slang at home - when you come to work put the bizness face on.
We do need more docs and lawyers in our communities.
Not every one will be a rapper or ball player - plus we have enough of those.
Quote: : To me, one of Cosby's most blatantly ignorant remarks was about african american language.
It certainly deviates from "proper" english but we all know who dictates what that english is.
I think that anyone with a clear understanding of African American culture will explain to him that having a unque and distinct way of speaking is something that denotes membership in a community that you love.
People are natrually unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor".
I know the obvious response it speaking like whitey is a good way to get whitey to treat you well but I think most people are inclined to say "fukk whitey".
the mighty mos def has a line that sums is up.
I used to speak the king's english
but caught a rash on my lips
so now i chat just like this
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People are natrually unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor".
Actually black slaves pretty much learned the southern accent from white southern slave owners.
They combine the vocal rythm of their native african languages with this southern american language and bingo, you have the black american accent!
It is only drastically different than the way white people speak outside of the south and that is due to blacks having even less social involvment with northern whitey's society for an extended period of time.
Once blacks migrated north they lost some of the southern drawl but kept many of the pronounciations and grammar.
This is probably due to a lack of formal education in the north for another extended period of time.
To me, it seems that rebellion has little to do with why blacks speak the way we do.
It has more to do with the origins of our first learning english and how it was allowed to develop by the people in power over us at various points in history (first southern whites, then northern whites)
So I'd have to say that not only where blacks not unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor" but that they did avery good job of learning it considering how extremely foreign the english language is to any african language and the almost total lack of education among the black early adopters of english.
I know the obvious response it speaking like whitey is a good way to get whitey to treat you well but I think most people are inclined to say "fukk whitey".
If one can afford to burn bridges and still live comfortably then I say fine!
However, if one finds himself constantly disadvantaged as a result of this then he should be willing to accept the consequences or adapt to improve his lot in life.
It all depends on what's important to the individual, rebellious spirit or success in this particular eurocentric society and culture.
Me personally, I prefer a third option, that is to retain the parts of african american culture that have positive effects on my life, spirit, and general "well being", and reject what doesn't work out so well.
I believe the middle road is the key for the average joe , no need to be extreme either way.
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People are natrually unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor
Actually black slaves pretty much learned the southern accent from white southern slave owners.
They combine the vocal rythm of their native african languages with this southern american language and bingo, you have the black american accent!
It is only drastically different than the way white people speak outside of the south and that is due to blacks having even less social involvment with northern whitey's society for an extended period of time.
Once blacks migrated north they lost some of the southern drawl but kept many of the pronounciations and grammar.
This is probably due to a lack of formal education in the north for another extended period of time.
To me, it seems that rebellion has little to do with why blacks speak the way we do.
It has more to do with the origins of our first learning english and how it was allowed to develop by the people in power over us at various points in history (first southern whites, then northern whites)
So I'd have to say that not only where blacks not unwilling to take on the "language of their opressor" but that they did avery good job of learning it considering how extremely foreign the english language is to any african language and the almost total lack of education among the black early adopters of english.
That's some strong analysis.
But i would still disagree with a large portion.
In the experience of the first waves African Slaves in the Caribean, speaking in their native toungue was a punnishable offense.
It created suspicion among slave owners of conspiracy and gave them a unique power.
Speaking the "Kings English" became the rule.
In response to this, you get a "broken" form of english in the form of patios, which combine elements of the old language and the new, giving the folks on the plantation to maintain a form of secrecy amongst each other while not directly breaking the rules.
I think that historical analysis is important.
But to me, the reason why blacks speak a different form of english TODAY is because they are reluctant to let go of the english of their ancestors.
It's engrained in their identity and self perception and they don't want to throw it out like a piece of dirty underwear.
For better or for worse they love their culture.
If one can afford to burn bridges and still live comfortably then I say fine!
However, if one finds himself constantly disadvantaged as a result of this then he should be willing to accept the consequences or adapt to improve his lot in life.
It all depends on what's important to the individual, rebellious spirit or success in this particular eurocentric society and culture.
Me personally, I prefer a third option, that is to retain the parts of african american culture that have positive effects on my life, spirit, and general "well being", and reject what doesn't work out so well.
I believe the middle road is the key for the average joe , no need to be extreme either way
props.
I cosign.
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Im not saying "Be White" to get ahead.
I like the "middle of the road" approch that allows me to be myself and still become successful in this "white mans world"
To many time bruhs just blindly rebel against the system because they think it owes them something.
Yes our race was enslaved.
Yes we did not get "upfront reperations." Yes our communities dont have the resources of others but what are we doing to fix the situation NOW for the present and our children/future?
Do we rebel and and loose yet of another generation of economic progress and our kids will have the same problems or discussions or do we educate ourselves and our peers on how to make loot in the stock market or real estate game?
I think thats basicly what Bill is trying to get across.
Step your/our game up - and it starts at home and in school.
Education is the key.
No one wants to do million dollar business deals and the other person cant speak the language.
Thats like saying you want a broke man for prez!
Quote: : I know the obvious response it speaking like whitey is a good way to get whitey to treat you well but I think most people are inclined to say "fukk whitey".
If one can afford to burn bridges and still live comfortably then I say fine!
However, if one finds himself constantly disadvantaged as a result of this then he should be willing to accept the consequences or adapt to improve his lot in life.
It all depends on what's important to the individual, rebellious spirit or success in this particular eurocentric society and culture.
Me personally, I prefer a third option, that is to retain the parts of african american culture that have positive effects on my life, spirit, and general "well being", and reject what doesn't work out so well.
I believe the middle road is the key for the average joe , no need to be extreme either way.
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Quote: : Bizness True or False -
1.
It is easier to get a GOOD (good being key word) job if you speak the kings english
2.
Its easier to support and raise your family with a good paying job
Bill was on point about what he said.
I would bet most people here who are calling him out on it are either young (teens) or don't care about the social economic survival of the race or your family.
Speak slang at home - when you come to work put the bizness face on.
We do need more docs and lawyers in our communities.
Not every one will be a rapper or ball player - plus we have enough of those.
I think that the point is that there is more to life than your material well being.
I beleive that the "solution" of speaking slang at home, and another way out in the "real world" is problematic.
It basically says that you can't be your authentic self in the real world as though something is wrong or dirty about the way you speak and your history.
That's not the way I want to raise my children.
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Yes there is more to life then material but its hard to feed babies with out money/jobs.
I have had conversations with my white co-workers about language and even they say they dont speak the way on the job that they would speak to there friends or at home.
Quote: : I think that the point is that there is more to life than your material well being.
I beleive that the "solution" of speaking slang at home, and another way out in the "real world" is problematic.
It basically says that you can't be your authentic self in the real world as though something is wrong or dirty about the way you speak and your history.
That's not the way I want to raise my children.
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I can't help but throw in my favourite quotation ever.
After the Egyptian and Indian, the Greek and Roman, the Teuton and Mongolian, the Negro is a sort of seventh son, born with a veil, and gifted with second-sight in this American world,--a world which yields him no true self-consciousness, but only lets him see himself through the revelation of the other world.
It is a peculiar sensation, this double-consciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity.
One ever feels his twoness,--an American, a Negro;
Two warring souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings;
Two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.
WEB Dubois
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Quote: : I think that the point is that there is more to life than your material well being.
I beleive that the "solution" of speaking slang at home, and another way out in the "real world" is problematic.
It basically says that you can't be your authentic self in the real world as though something is wrong or dirty about the way you speak and your history.
That's not the way I want to raise my children.
I understand your point.
It does send the message that the way you are at home is bad or inferior to the way you are at work.
I don't really have a good explanation for that, I guess it's more of a compromise when you are relying on this society to have your career.
Mos Def is a musician and musician's and all other artists tend to be free spirits and whatnot so people don't demand the social/cultural ritual of proper language and dresscode among them.
For all other serious careers we must play this game.
There's little else to do.
You can choose to find ways to acheive what you want while existing outside of the white society as Mos Def is succesfully managing to do, you can thrust yourself right into the middle of this society and devote yourself to playing it to the fullest like Cosby is very successfully managing to do, or maybe you can find little "pockets" of individuality within the "broader" society that allow you to mostly be yourself while still participating in this society in a significant way.
I think this third option could be:
To start your own business.
Business owners get to set their own "corporate" culture within their organization while still knowing when to appeal to the larger society to do business with.
You would only need to make cultural compromises when making deals with outside companies, the environment from whithin your company could still be a "for us, by us" type of place.
I have seen this done by many black businesses and it can work.
The problem is that most businesses fail and black businesses don't get as many loans and support on average.
It's an uphill battle all the way as a black businessman/woman.
Or at the very least just speakin' ebonics at home and "whitening" it up at work.
It's not as glorious as the "start your own business" choice but it's the easyest and most popular one to implement.
The only drawback is that it is sort of admitting that your culture is deficient or inferior in this particular time and place so if cultural issues are of great importance to you this one would be hard to deal with.
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How important is the king's english?
Its only really important if you have a service job that asks you to interact with mostly white people.
I know tons of koreans who own sh!t but can't speak like bill cosby to save their lives.
This is the problem in my eyes with the black community.
White people don't like your accent?
Fukk em. start your own businesses and go there.
How do you think ethnic groups come to america and prosper?
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Quote: : how important is the king's english?
Its only really important if you have a service job that asks you to interact with mostly white people.
I know tons of koreans who own sh!t but can't speak like bill cosby to save their lives.
This is the problem in my eyes with the black community.
White people don't like your accent?
Fukk em. start your own businesses and go there.
How do you think ethnic groups come to america and prosper?
Very true. But the obvious difference is that we didn't "Come to America".
There is a large disagreement within the community as to whether we need to do our own **** as a group..
Or just merge in with the mainstream.
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Quote: : very true.
But the obvious difference is that we didn't "Come to America".
There is a large disagreement within the community as to whether we need to do our own **** as a group..
Or just merge in with the mainstream.
Trying to merge into the mainstream hasn't worked for native americans.
I doubt that it will ever work for blacks.
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Omeo, when you participate in your debate competitions, what kind of english do you use?
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"Yo nicca a disagree you buggin.
You can't even step to this"
No, he's not going to win the debate with that.
Bottom line is this: when you are in the work world there is a way you are expected to speak.
You have to speak this way because people need to understand you.
I work in a company where the teams in my midst are 70% non-white (mostly foreign-born) and 90% are non-Angloid.
If we all spoke our at-home slang then nothing would ever get done.
Only domestic blacks seem to not understand this and in turn respond like rebellious teenagers.
If a guy coming off the plane from Nigeria can speak (mostly) understandable English and get by in the work world then so can Omeo's children, because frankly no one really cares "who you are" at work so much as what you can do for the company.
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Quote: : Lion Omeo, when you participate in your debate competitions, what kind of english do you use?
Fair question.
In actual rounds of competition I put on the face and speak the King's English.
It's the language of power and I know it.
Debating is half style half substance.
I am known me as one of the elites when it comes to style.
But at the same time I like to juxtapose really elaborate and articulate phrasing with simple laid back..statements.
I occassionally start a sentence with something like "dude..
Fundamentally the problem with..."
But outside of rounds of competition, when debaters are hanging out at a hotel boozing, talking about what happened in round I talk a lot more like I do when I'm around my people.
I have no problem with being fluid.
I think i can do this because I see each of these voices as being equally valuable.
It's not a question of GOOD english vs BAD english.
They are all just different types needed to accomplish different tasks.
My problem with Cosby's comment are that he doesn't present ANY value in the African American "native tounge".
All of the successful examples of bilingual immigrants starts with having pride in the native tounge and all it's intracacies, while being concious that you have to align yourself with the language of power.
As long as people in Cosby's position look at black english as stupid/ignorant english as opposed to an english that is simply different his message is gonna get the gas face.
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