Welcome to Omgili,
Omgili ( Oh My God I Love It ;) is a search engine for discussions. With Omgili you can find answers and solutions, debates, discussions, personal experiences, opinions and more... To learn more about Omgili click here.
This is a complete preview of the discussion as it was indexed by Omgili crawlers. Use this preview if the original discussion is unavailable.
Click here to view the original discussion.
 |
|
 |
|
DIY painting thread...What to use, How to do it. - AVS Forum
I have spent some time reading about all the great finishes out there and I figured a thread dedicated to DIY painting would be good.
What equipment should be purchased?
I have looked online, went to HD and Lowes and it seems like there is a large cost required for professional products.
The compressors needed are all in the $400+ range then the guns are $100+.
If Im not going to use it constantly I does seem like a good investment.
IF not pro grade equipment, then what?
Spray cans? Is there something a little better that allows for a better spray coat from a rookie?
Maybe its just practice and techinque.
Primer/base coats on MDF?
What is the best?
Bondo/body filler, what are the best options?
How do we make it smooth?
Sanding?
How many coats, what should we buy to make a paino gloss black finish.
Clear coats?
Poly? Do we do this when we paint to get a high gloss protected finish?
Waxing?
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
Unless you have a compresor that can put out 8-10cfm at least, forget about painting, you will most likely have poor results.
My Sata NR2000 HVLP spray gun uses about 13 cu ft / minute.
Unless you already have a use for an air compresor, and it's a decent size, the amount of $$ to get in is prohibitive for most people.
I have had generally good results in painting MDF, however the one enclosure that I painted and took to Indianapolis developed glue lines during the trip down.
( moisture change )
It seems like you have to seal the MDF really well both inside and out and make sure it's very close to the humidity that it will 'live' in.
Nick McKinney posted to use a west system epoxy if you want the best results, coat the entire enclosure on the outside, sand smooth, prime and paint.
I have used inexpensive Minwax urethane to seal MDF, generally 2-3 coats with dry time in between both inside and out of the box.
The sanded urethane finish will keep your primer from soaking into the MDF much.
A spray can of good quality paint ( think auto paint from a jobber ) will give you good results on a sealed finish, and they are up here, about $ 20 per can for a custom mix.
Not the toughest finish compared to a cross linked polyurethane, but also not as bad for you.
( catalysts contain Isocyanates )
You need proper protective gear when dealing with the strong solvents, and especially with isocyanates.
There are paint systems that do not use any isocyanates, especially those for cabinet finishing.
Body filler works fine on MDF, I use a sanding block to get it flat.
180 grit paper is fine for primer, too coarse and you will have sandscratch showing.
Clear coats: there are many types and chemistries, it's best to use compatable products from a single company to assure that you will have no problems.
Some products have a maximum thickness, like the catalyzed lacquer I have sprayed.
Bottom line: talk to a paint professional before you shell out any $ on what to use.
Ask people that have used their product before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not being as picky as most here with my finish, I just brush painted some semi gloss black on my sub box and it looks decent.
I wouldn't want to sell a product like this, but it looks pretty good.
Harbor freight has the guns for spraying, but I have read the quality is sub par.
They start at around $15 for their guns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : Not being as picky as most here with my finish, I just brush painted some semi gloss black on my sub box and it looks decent.
I wouldn't want to sell a product like this, but it looks pretty good.
Harbor freight has the guns for spraying, but I have read the quality is sub par.
They start at around $15 for their guns.
I used a cheap touch up sprayer from Harbor Freight to spray the poly onto my curved E-wave speakers.
With a little care it did a great job.
Make sure to practice on some scrap wood pieces first though!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know the HD around me rents stuff out, haven't ever checked on renting a compressor/paint setup, but if you're spraying a bunch of cabinets and only really need to do it one time, might be worthwhile to check out rental rates.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : hurd Unless you have a compresor that can put out 8-10cfm at least, forget about painting, you will most likely have poor results.
My Sata NR2000 HVLP spray gun uses about 13 cu ft / minute.
Unless you already have a use for an air compresor, and it's a decent size, the amount of $$ to get in is prohibitive for most people.
I have had generally good results in painting MDF, however the one enclosure that I painted and took to Indianapolis developed glue lines during the trip down.
( moisture change )
It seems like you have to seal the MDF really well both inside and out and make sure it's very close to the humidity that it will 'live' in.
Nick McKinney posted to use a west system epoxy if you want the best results, coat the entire enclosure on the outside, sand smooth, prime and paint.
I have used inexpensive Minwax urethane to seal MDF, generally 2-3 coats with dry time in between both inside and out of the box.
The sanded urethane finish will keep your primer from soaking into the MDF much.
A spray can of good quality paint ( think auto paint from a jobber ) will give you good results on a sealed finish, and they are up here, about $ 20 per can for a custom mix.
Not the toughest finish compared to a cross linked polyurethane, but also not as bad for you.
( catalysts contain Isocyanates )
You need proper protective gear when dealing with the strong solvents, and especially with isocyanates.
There are paint systems that do not use any isocyanates, especially those for cabinet finishing.
Body filler works fine on MDF, I use a sanding block to get it flat.
180 grit paper is fine for primer, too coarse and you will have sandscratch showing.
Clear coats: there are many types and chemistries, it's best to use compatable products from a single company to assure that you will have no problems.
Some products have a maximum thickness, like the catalyzed lacquer I have sprayed.
Bottom line: talk to a paint professional before you shell out any $ on what to use.
Ask people that have used their product before.
Thanks Michael!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Those cheap guns at harbor freight are pretty much one use and that's it.
If you want a good gun that you can use over and over you have to spend in the region of $200 or so.
Those can be taken apart with ease and cleaned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What about those smaller "hobby" sprayer kits?
Made for models and such.
I'd think they have to be decent, they just don't put out massive amounts of paint for huge sub enclosures.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Michael is spot on in his assessment...(sounds like you have some experience)
I had painted cars for 15 years before I went into the office...and I would prefer the auto finishes out there, since that is what I had been trained in, with the caveat that you protect yourself...(shoot suit and fresh air...Iso's can get in to your system almost anyway, but they LOVE mucus membranes!)
I have been hovering for a while, and am really thinking of taking the plunge into DIY...(thanks to you guys, of course).
Anything I do will be ultra high gloss black...for myself, it would have to be perfect.
I would take Michael's work a step further, bondo/poly putty, prime, and finish with 320g.
Then guidecoat, and wetsand w/ 500g.
Base/ 2 coats Clear...wetsand with 1200// 2 more coats clear...wetsand w/no less than 2000g nicken...buff and polish.
So deep you can shave in it!
I kow it sounds easy, but am skipping significant steps here...I can walk anybody through it if they are interested...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : g. I know it sounds easy, but I am skipping significant steps here...I can walk anybody through it if they are interested...
What about that sounds easy, I am exhausted just reading your post
For the amount of time and money invested to do a proper paint job it seems more cost effective to hire someone to do it.
If I had facilities like you Kevin then that would be a different story.
I did take a snap shot of the last time I painted though
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you want easy, forget gloss black.
Brandon and Zaph turn out some good looking stuff with textured paint in a rattle can.
Duplicolor and Rustoleum are two brands that work pretty well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : If you want easy, forget gloss black.
Brandon and Zaph turn out some good looking stuff with textured paint in a rattle can.
Duplicolor and Rustoleum are two brands that work pretty well.
Well thats the whole point of this thread....I do not want to forget about gloss black
I would just veneer if I was to forget about high end paint finishes and that is what I have done for awhile now.
I just wanted to have a thread to discuss how to do a high end finish.
Step by step would be awesome.
Maybe others could use the expert advice in the thread too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : g. Michael is spot on in his assessment...(sounds like you have some experience)
I had painted cars for 15 years before I went into the office...and I would prefer the auto finishes out there, since that is what I had been trained in, with the caveat that you protect yourself...(shoot suit and fresh air...Iso's can get in to your system almost anyway, but they LOVE mucus membranes!)
I have been hovering for a while, and am really thinking of taking the plunge into DIY...(thanks to you guys, of course).
Anything I do will be ultra high gloss black...for myself, it would have to be perfect.
I would take Michael's work a step further, bondo/poly putty, prime, and finish with 320g.
Then guidecoat, and wetsand w/ 500g.
Base/ 2 coats Clear...wetsand with 1200// 2 more coats clear...wetsand w/no less than 2000g nicken...buff and polish.
So deep you can shave in it!
I kow it sounds easy, but am skipping significant steps here...I can walk anybody through it if they are interested...
Thanks!
I would love to see a nice break down with actual product choices and kind of a dummies guide....like what is Guidecoat?
And 2000g nicken ?
I have a local connection for possibly getting my project professionally done but I still would like to try it on my own.
I havent researched the rental option yet and I do not have the proper ventilated area to do this either so that might be a huge road block.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That would be no trouble at all.
If we can swap expertise...that would be even better for me, as I have seen your work penngray, and have been very impressed.
(once you learn my trade...there are no more secrets to behold...
)
Quick questions answered: Guide coat is just a quick blast of spray-bomb over your primer...(sometimes even helpful in your bondo work), you spray a light coat before each successive sanding step...as you sand, any of the color left behind either shows low spots or sand scratches from previous grits.
For example: say, you have your bondo work completed finished in 80 or 120 g, you spray your first coats of build primer, when it is cured, you lightly spray a coat of black spray-bomb...kind of speckling the entire surface...you will then use a board with a finer grit sandpaper than you finished the bondo with...220 or 240.(the same idea you use when finishing wood for staining I'm sure).
Block sand the entire primed surface in a criss-cross pattern and you will see the low and heavier sand scratch spots jump out...the speckled areas will still be there and you will see the flat areas have a nice sanded smooth look.
Continue sanding until you either break through the primer/bondo, or the low spots/scratches come out.
Nicken is just a type of coated sandpaper, Meguiar's makes the best wetsanding paper on the market, IMHO...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zinser BIN is the ticket for sealing up the MDF after you sand it smooth and do any bondo work on it.
After that you can hit it with a good catalyzed primer and move on from there without worrying about those damn glue lines peeking through your work.
I finished these stands a couple months ago and have yet to see any ill effects after some drastic humidity variations this summer:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Having shot a few cars I have no urge to shoot my boxes.
While a little more labor intensive I've rolled a couple gloss black boxes with good results.
As they said you need to seal the MDF, if thats what you're using.
I've seen titebond and water used with good results.
Seal and sand mostly smooth to 220 grit.
I've been using kilz oil based primer since its cheap, works very well and is readily available.
Two thin coats of primer and then sand to 220 grit.
3 coats of a quality, oil based gloss black and then wet sand all the way to 1000 grit.
I've been using rubbing and polishing compounds to bring the super shiny gloss out.
At this point you can leave it here or apply 2-3 coats of acrylic clear coat.
I use acrylic since it doesnt yellow like poly based clear coats.
Again wet sand to at least 1000 grit followed by rubbing and polishing compounds.
A couple of things I've learned along the way.
Use nice rollers.
If you are forced to get cheap rollers spend extra time cleaning them.
If you dont clean your rollers you'll end up with little hairs stuck in the paint which are a real pain to sand out.
The best method I've found to clean the rollers is to mount them on the roller handle and spin them with about 40 psi of air from your compressor.
Do it outside since it will make a mess.
While I generally dont like the foam rollers they seem to work better than cheap nap style.
You dont need to clean them beforehand and they won't leave little hairs in your paint.
The oil based paint seems to spread just as evenly on properly prepared surfaces so I see no reason to avoid them.
I've never been able to get a water based black paint to smooth out the way that oil based does.
Even with lots of elbow grease it still comes out poorly.
Its why I put up with the stink of oil based.
If you're going to do any kind of corner treatment on an MDF box be sure to apply wood hardener to all corners beforehand.
I've noticed while chamfering edges the MDF will spread the tiniest bit which means you have to putty/bondo it before you paint or you end up with wrinkles on all your edges.
If you've never used rubbing or polishing compound before, look it up before you try it.
If you dont do it right they can have mediocre or even ill effects.
I have two 7" buffers with lambs wool bonnets and I get much better results using papertowels by hand.
Some people swear by the special terry cloth towels but I didnt see any difference in my test.
You can get the compounds as cheaply as $2 each at walmart so its well worth a try.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ventoso,
Very nice indeed...I am not familiar with "glue lines", having only worked with painting mdf very little...I had repaired a box that somebody attempted to build/finish for a friend a few years back...will post pics when I get home.
But I have not seen the box since.
LHD21,
Agreed, automotive-style is not for the faint of heart, but it is very durable, and beautiful, and as I stated earlier, it is my chosen method, as I have had literally shot hundreds of cars, so it kinda comes natural....
Also Agreed, there is definitely an art form to buffing/polishing...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : g. LHD21,
Agreed, automotive-style is not for the faint of heart, but it is very durable, and beautiful, and as I stated earlier, it is my chosen method, as I have had literally shot hundreds of cars, so it kinda comes natural....
Also Agreed, there is definitely an art form to buffing/polishing...
I'd honestly prefer to shoot but I have serious concerns about the impact to long term health.
I've never found a respirator that kept me from getting paint boogers and it just bothers me.
I've tried at least 6 different types and none of them were cheap.
If you have the ability to shoot, do it.
If you do it right its a quality finish thats hard to beat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : I would love to see a nice break down with actual product choices and kind of a dummies guide....like what is Guidecoat?
And 2000g nicken ?
.
Didn't somebody have a thread similar to that last year?
Was it member Kouack?
I'm wanting to say that it was...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Something I know about " Finally " !.
Are you looking for piano gloss black high luster durable finish ?
A quality finish is dependent on several factors , the most important
is Prep work , done else where from where you'll spraying the finished product .
Making a plastic " CLEAN ROOM " enclosure , with a small exhaust fan
is nearly essential , unless you wish to waste a lot of material by sanding
lint and airborne particles out of the material prior too buffing it !.
Keeping everything including your clothes ( use a treated paper chemical suit or TOP Quality painting suit ) clean floor damp not wet just damp booties on shoes spray one unit at a time minimizes over spray and extra work for you .
You tell me what finish you want to have and I'll recommend the Best
Material for the job .
FYI ;
I've formulated coatings for 3 of the largest company's in the world as well as actually applied them.
From aircraft, spaceships ,automotive ,marine and commercial Sound manufactures for nearly 4 decades now .
I made carbon fiber " White " Hollywood Bowl sound system attested too that fact !.
Think polyester/ polyester urethane / Urethane / and if you want to level and buff or finished spray as it lays .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
For enclosure materials I suggest 13 ply Fin Birch 3/4 /13/64 " whatever it is now over MDF .
Far superior acoustically as well as finish ability .
Bondo ???.
Leave that for cheap and dirty automotive pin hole filling .
Polyester wood primer mixing for sealing and filling dependent on ratio of
dilution , MEKP curing type .
Think fiberglass products re formulated for wood .
Think FRP industry look up Hawkeye Industry's brand name Duratec
.
Http://www.duratec1.com/ProductList.html#painting
I see your in Florida and there are a TON of
FRP suppliers in that State , IE Boating central .
Materials will be a Snap for you to acquire and very reasonable .
Clear adds depth and a degree of durability .
Commercial venues use Epoxy bedliner ,floor,
plural component finishes .
Audiences are interested in the performers not the equipment !.
Dazzlingly wonderful light shows combined with blasting sound is what their paying for .
Sound stage engineers ( Tech term for Roadies ) Unpack stack rack connect breakdown and
repack in hours .
Not to concerned with equipment finishes , So durability responsibility falls
back on the R & D Chemist !.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : Didn't somebody have a thread similar to that last year?
Was it member Kouack?
I'm wanting to say that it was...
My searches didnt find much, I will search Kouack's threads.
Thx!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : For enclosure materials I suggest 13 ply Fin Birch 3/4 /13/64 " whatever it is now over MDF .
Far superior acoustically I know there is a link to this, proving it but I can not find it.
Anyone have the link?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is this what your looking for the thread ?.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-805828.html
I can assure each and everyone of you the advantages to using 13 ply
far out weighs ANY Disadvantages !.
Professional equipment has gone well past " Wood " boxes .
Hence the screen name LordCarbon as in Fiber Hexcel core construction
carcasses ?.
I had to laugh when I read Sub walking !.
Proper box damping
and soft shoe pads or hanging and that's history .
Box "resonance" !
NOT THICKNESS or even Weight is what you want to
prevent .
I'm around professionals day in day out that build state of the art
commercial sound systems amps mixers speakers , For nearly EVERY top
touring group or musician .They also set up an maintain tours .
Lets play a game , YOU guess who am I speaking about .
I simply no longer do that work, however pioneered a fair share of it .
While working in the Aerospace industry for decades .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: : I had to laugh when I read Sub walking !.
Proper box damping
and soft shoe pads or hanging and that's history .
WHEN you find a 'pro sound' driver that has a POUND and a half of moving mass, then we can talk.
Of course, that's not going to happen ever.
Look up the spec for the MMS of a TC Sounds LMS 5400 or an RE Audio XXX.
Typical MMS for a prosound driver is 1/10th of that of those listed above.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clean abraded substrate shot with polyester or urethane even epoxy primer
multiple light coats ,allowing full cure or overlap curing depending on what you choose .
Point is make sure it's cured totally !.
Lightly abrade surfaces smooth
finer grit IE 320-600 for Gloss black minimizes sanding scratch ( print transfer )
Shoot on material of your choice Automotive Valspar ,PPG .
Dupont Etc. .
Two system is just fine base coat clear top coat ( allows for flattening surface by abrading base coat with above mentioned silicon carbide paper grit )
Wipe with lint free or tack cloth .
NEVER solvent wipe as this SWELLS sanding
scratches .
Once surfaces are completely covered with color of your choice
flattened and clean , spray clear coat .
Light coats allow solvents to
evaporate or ( Flash off ) between coats minimizes sags runs or drips heaven forbid .
After complete clear cure repeat clear process again or if your satisfied
with the initial coating process and have ample clear material over color base .
Simply abrade with 600 800 1500- in that order grit and
obtain a quality polish such as 3M
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/3m-f...FRwpawodzG1WdA
Wax with Quality paste wax containing Carnuba such as RV/Marine products
or Teflon wax .
ttp://www.meguiarsdirect.com/products/marine-rv_care
You will have a MIRROR FINISH !.
If done properly of course .
LC ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you choose FRP product route IE Duratec it's a little more complicated .
As that's a polyester base product requiring MEKP catalyzing as does their clear coats .
MUCH thicker material and is formulated as anti sag .
VERY durable for what
your looking for and can be clear coated with Urethane for
ULTIMATE GLOSS FACTOR .
BOL . LC ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|