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• View topic - Fitness for the Martial Arts and the Army Physical Fitness T
In the past I've been involved in and have read loads of discussions about the lack of wisdom in old karate training methods that consisted of long runs and endless pressups, situps etc.
People tended to be even more critical of organisations that tested endurance during gradings.
The argument against it was that karate requires good anaerobic endurance - the ability to run 2 miles and perform countless pushups and situps had no relevance to karate.
Anyway, it got me thinking about how the martial arts organisations that teach and test fitness are actually in line with modern military in this respect.
The Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) is probably a pretty good guide for martial artists that want to build a fitness base that will get them the best possible results from their training.
According to this site:
Quote: : The intent of the APFT in the Physical Fitness Program is to provide a baseline assessment regardless of MOS or duty.
http://www.hooah4health.com/4You/apft.htm
So in other words, whatever specialisation you choose (for martial artist the choices might be grappling arts, kicking 'n punching arts, etc), there are some common basic fitness requirements - prerequesites even.
Once you've built up a good enough base to pass the APFT test you should then in good enough shape to start more specialised fitness training for your martial art.
There's a little calculator where you enter your age and and gender and it tells you what your minimum baseline fitness level should be.
It gives figures for Excellent, Average and Below average - although I suspect that this is average for military personel taking the test and not average for the general population!
There's also a 3 month training program to get you into shape to pass the APFT:
http://www.hooah4health.com/4You/APFT_Calendar.pdf
For those of you in organisations that still do this kind of fitness training and testing at dan grades - how does the APFT test compare with what you're required to do ?
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Point of information Susan: The test you refer to is from the US Army.
It is not as rigourous as the basic British Army test which without sounding too patriotic is the one I would prefer to see your comments based on.
Obviously within different parts of the british army there are different minimum levels of physical ability demanded depending on role.
As you are a fitness fanatic I would have thought the RN Royal Marine site or Parachute Reg site would be more your cup of tea.
To base your further fitness theories....
Robbie O'Donnell
San Pedro Dojo
JKAMarbella
Spain.
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It's a question of whether more rigourous is always best isn't it ?
This is one of the critisisms leveled at organisations that test fitness during gradings - that the goal of "fitness for the sake of it" overtakes the goal of getting "fit for karate".
But I don't know that it's a fair critisism.
I used to think like that but not any more.
I personally have little interest in fitness for the sake of it.
I very specifically want to get fit for karate.
This is what I told Dave Barker (KWF - Norway : If anyone want's some top-notch training advise look him up on RobertS's forums) when he took over planning of my fitness training a few months back.
When we started out he was not at all impressed by my basic fitness (stamina).
I didn't think it was bad at the time - I could manage a 10kph 3 mile run at a struggle and had no problem churning out situps and pushups (I would have passed the APFT in fact!).
But it wasn't good enough for Dave He said that I didn't have a good enough fitness base on which to improve speed and power (I think I remember him telling me that I had zero stamina!!!).
Initially, his training program consisted of a lot of distance running, a few long-duration intervals and a pretty arduous gym program that consisted of loads of non-stop pressups, situps, squats, starjumps etc.
Once I was comfortable with 10 k distances in a decent time we moved on to more high intensity stuff like hill sprints and shorter intervals.
Now the distance running is reducing a little (although I'm still doing occasional 10k and 5k races), and focus is more on 150 - 800 m distances.
I think the plan is to move on to much shorter sprints and speed work when I've adapted to short distance runs and hill sprints.
So in other words, despite a good few months of training I still haven't reached the high intensity karate specific fitness training - Dave still doesn't think I've got a strong enough fitness base for that.
So based upon my experience with a top notch fitness trainer (one that's reached a high level in karate as well as being competetive in running) I would say you might be right.
Maybe the APFT ISN'T rigorous enough ?
Perhaps you can post links to the tests you're talking about ?
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Robbie
I think Susan is giving this as an example of a basic measure that people can use to start from.
Many moons ago when I started in the Merchant Navy we were put through what we were told was the US Marines fitness test at Nautical College.
There was no pass or fail as such but it was used to establish our basic fitness levels and gave everyone targets to aim for.
Not to sound too unpatriotic it was a very tough routtine even for a group of 18-20 year olds.
I for one was still playing competitive rugby on a weekly basis, kayaking and had been doing some judo so was not 'unfit'.
I cannot remember the details but am sure it contained the elements in the test Susan mentioned (although there were time limits on various exercises such as sit ups) and others such as pull ups, shuttle runs and static jumps.
Cameron
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I fail to see the point in testing someone on how fit they are as a way of rank advancement.
Karate knowledge and skills are mutually exclusive when you put them next to fitness leve.
I have seen many 8th dans that have recieved ranking that could not do the fitness tests outlined by susan.
The ability to understand and perform Karate Waza is what we look for when testing students.
Yes, fitness is a goal and should be an aim of all students but making that a testing component would be silly, unless you are a sport only style of shotokan, and then you are automatically limiting your student base and keeping some back.
Again, if you wish to seek extream fitness levels that is great for you, but it should be seen as a testing requirement!
I think the more fit you are the better, but it has nothing to do with traditional Karate practice, or little.
I dont think Nakayama was ready to run any marathon or beat someone in a sprint even when he was younger, but he had good Karate.
Osaka, someone that is seen as having near perfect Kihon was not a big time athlete.
I think if you are looking to get good at Karate and be fit that is great, but dont equate them as being the same thing.
James. J
Even monkeys fall from trees
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Cameron,
I spent some time in the army cadets that's all.
I did an extra year and we were "rewarded" with doing the initial elements of the para fitness tests which were killers..
It was easter 1982 and an interesting time as most of our para instructors were soon off to Las Malvinas.
I know some did not come back which is not so nice.
RIP gents.
Robbie O'Donnell
San Pedro Dojo
JKAMarbella
Spain.
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Quote: : I think Susan is giving this as an example of a basic measure that people can use to start from.
Exactly.
There's a similar discussion on the KWF forum.
I asked Dave what he thought of the APFT.
He hasn't had time to take a look yet, but he pointed out that getting the base levels of fitness is easy.
Probably about 3 months work, and there's lots of ways to go about it.
So probably pretty much any of these armed forces fitness tests would be a reasonable guide.
It's the sport specific stuff that's tricky - that's a very individual thing where each person needs to work specifically on their own weaknesses if they are to succesfully build speed and power.
And this is an area in which expert help is typically lacking in karate I think.
Like it or not, you can't do this kind of thing....
...if you aren't extremely fit.
Now I'm sure LOTS of people would dearly love to be able to do this kind of thing.
Pretty much anyone can go out and run and do pressups / situps and build good basic fitness levels.
But that just means you're ready to start getting fit for karate - you aren't yet there.
Did you know that Tom Kurz claims that you can't begin to train properly in karate if you can't squat your body weight!
And lots of experts insist that you should start jumping plyometrics (which are perfect for karate) until you can squat 2 times your body weight!
But where does the karateka that wants elite fitness go for help ?
Ideally you want someone that really knows about fitness training AND knows about karate.
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Quote: : Cameron,
I spent some time in the army cadets that's all.
I did an extra year and we were "rewarded" with doing the initial elements of the para fitness tests which were killers..
I spent time in the Canadian Army in the Recon unit, we did a tone of fitness based stuff and every year had a test they called "warriror" testing.
It was hard stuff and very demanding.
It also involved scores for marksmanship and also other things.
The fitness test was tough.
The funny thing about fitness is that if you do not train at 110% all the time you start to loose it.
Once you slack for a year or two you have to work like hell to get it back.
Flexibility is another.
I also did the POPAT, or Police officers Physical Assesment test on a broken ankle no less.
The test would have been a challenge for those that were not in good shape.
I had to stop half way threw the offical test when my ankle gave out.
But a week later the instructor let me run it again with a brace on and I could complete it, but it was not easy.
Back in the day when I was in the Army I would have taken this course appart in no time.
My point is that it can not be expected for a person to stay in ultra great shape if it is not their job...or if they have a family and other concerns.
I think the goal is admirable, but it is not realistic for 90% of the people doing Karate.
James. J
Even monkeys fall from trees
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Ideally you want someone that really knows about fitness training AND knows about karate.[/Quote: ]
I ll be able to come on here maybe once or twice a day over the next week.
How may i be of service?
Michael Powell
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Shoto Quote: : Ideally you want someone that really knows about fitness training AND knows about karate.
I ll be able to come on here maybe once or twice a day over the next week.
How may i be of service?[/Quote: ]
LOL!
James. J
Even monkeys fall from trees
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Quote: : I ll be able to come on here maybe once or twice a day over the next week.
How may i be of service?
Michael, I personally have a fitness trainer on another forum (Dave on Robert S's forums).
It's working out VERY well.
He gives me my training schedule each week (on the forum) and I post up details of how things went.
He's been helping me for a few months now and my fitness (and karate) has improved in leaps and bounds.
In recent weeks my partner Paul has started following Dave's training schedule too.
He's getting similar results.
We both have always been very keen on maximising fitness for karate and have worked hard at it, but it's making all the difference getting some expert advice.
It's been a fantastic help to me - I'm sure loads of other people could benefit from this kind of help.
It's not just a question of getting expert advice, but the added motivation you get from :
a) Not having to think about what to do each day (If you don't have to think there's no opportunity to prevaricate or take the easy option)
b) There's pressure to do the training because you have to report back each day.
c) There's pressure to do it well for the same reason.
If you're interested in this and have some experience then I think Emma and Shaun would be daft not to give you a little 'fitness training for karate' board where you can answer fitness questions and provide tailored training programs for those that want them.
Although it'd need to be a long term thing and not just for a week.
I don't know what your formal qualifications are (and I personally don't think it matters provided you know what you're talking about), but if you don't have them all you need to do is make that clear up front and explain what your experience is.
On a public forum you're always bound to get someone whining about how "he's not qualifed, blah, blah..." but most genuine people are interested in the quality of your advise.
A lot of people moan about discussion forums and claim that they are of little practical use.
Well, this would be one sure fire way to change that.
Shaun, Emma - if Michael's willing and able why not give it a little try ?
If Michael's not willing or able maybe you can find someone that is ?
Maybe Dave could make time to do it over here too ?
It's a real gap in karate training that discussion forums like this can fill.
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It may interest some, perhaps a separate part of the forum could be set up so those of us with back grounds in fitness or Rehab of injuries could help out a bit....like and advice section.
Susan may be on to something.
James. J
Even monkeys fall from trees
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I first must state, grades and qualifications mean nothing to me personally unless the syllabus by which you are qualified in is clearly defined.
It is the individual or group ability in doing, teaching or both that’s important.
Basically are they effective from that definition, and in the end not to take them or yourself/supposed knowledge to seriously.
That said, I qualified with the YMCA (at the time widely recognised as the premier teacher training) as a teacher of fitness training in 1992.
At this time I was a part time duty manager of the local sports centre and worked three days a week in the gym coaching and inducting new members in weight training technique and safety.
At this same time/place I set up the ‘super eight circuit’ based on 8 compound exercises to work all major muscles.
This included a warm up and short stretch, the main component, cool down and either a maintenance or developmental stretch all based on the fitness levels of those present, first by taking all as beginners then assessing each and seeing and adapting accordingly to progress each individual over a number of weeks.
Safe and effective was the YMCA motto.
In 1994, 16 years after I was first shown the basic Karate punch as a child, that lead to start training at a premier KUGB club, I gutted and refitted with the help of some friends/students a large room above a heavy duty gym in the grounds of a health and fitness club.
For the next 10 years I taught karate professionally in this fully equipped dojo and for the first few years, circuit training and gym instruction as well as qualifying as a shiatsu practitioner and later tutor.
For those not interested in the formalisation and ‘rituals’ of karate, I developed YogaAeroba, consisting of a comprehensive warm up, 20 mins martial art aerobics, 20 mins strengthening circuit, 20 mins yoga/m art stretching ending with a deep letting go relaxation.
It proved a very popular class.
Treating hundreds of clients/friends over the years, the cause of injuries among other things became glaringly obvious – barring freak accidents the over or misuse of the body driven by a subconscious negative emotional issue(s).
I moved to Cornwall in 2004, where I write, treat the occasional client/personal instruction and teach the odd course always stressing the pushing of the body not the punishing of it.
Michael Powell
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Well that sounds pretty impressive to me!
Regardless of whether Shaun and Emma decide to set up a fitness training board I think it would be a great idea for you to kick off a few topics on the subject.
I for one will be very interested in hearing more about your experiences and opinions.
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Interesting!
Shoto Quote: : I first must state, grades and qualifications mean nothing to me personally unless the syllabus by which you are qualified in is clearly defined.
It is the individual or group ability in doing, teaching or both that’s important.
Basically are they effective from that definition, and in the end not to take them or yourself/supposed knowledge to seriously.
I could not agree more, that is why you only take away from a forum that which you find useful.
I can not say I have or will train side by side with any of you, being in North America and the majority here being from Europe.
I do have some I would love to train with, and at that point I would judge thier skills.
Till then you have to go with what you read.
Shoto Quote: : That said, I qualified with the YMCA (at the time widely recognised as the premier teacher training) as a teacher of fitness training in 1992.
At this time I was a part time duty manager of the local sports centre and worked three days a week in the gym coaching and inducting new members in weight training technique and safety.
At this same time/place I set up the ‘super eight circuit’ based on 8 compound exercises to work all major muscles.
This included a warm up and short stretch, the main component, cool down and either a maintenance or developmental stretch all based on the fitness levels of those present, first by taking all as beginners then assessing each and seeing and adapting accordingly to progress each individual over a number of weeks.
Safe and effective was the YMCA motto.
LOL, the YMCA must be a big deal over in Europe, here it means nothing.
We have to many groups that are ready to train and work with young fitness experts and qualify them.
ACE is the one I started with when I was 18 ish.
Then I decided to stop fooling around and go to university and really get to know the body and how it works.
Four years later and I left with my University papers for Prevention and care of injuries.
I then went further and went into a course for Remedial massage, another two years.
Then I went into a company driven course for assesment and treatement for long term and short term disability, this was geared at dealing with other providers.
So, we can sniff out good and bad providers.
I am glad that the YMCA does more than just run poor gyms in Europe.
I would love to hear more about it because my personal experience with the YMCA is that of a "kiddy gym" set up.
Shoto Quote: : In 1994, 16 years after I was first shown the basic Karate punch as a child, that lead to start training at a premier KUGB club, I gutted and refitted with the help of some friends/students a large room above a heavy duty gym in the grounds of a health and fitness club.
For the next 10 years I taught karate professionally in this fully equipped dojo and for the first few years, circuit training and gym instruction as well as qualifying as a shiatsu practitioner and later tutor.
Ah, Shiatsu...I am glad you had a good run as an instructor as well, who were your instructors?
This helps me know what kind of Shotokan you are teaching.
Shoto Quote: : For those not interested in the formalisation and ‘rituals’ of karate, I developed YogaAeroba, consisting of a comprehensive warm up, 20 mins martial art aerobics, 20 mins strengthening circuit, 20 mins yoga/m art stretching ending with a deep letting go relaxation.
It proved a very popular class.
I am sure it did.
We have that kind of class in every gym over here, actually one that I personally tried out included some Pilates as well.
I would say your development probably could have gone very smoothly if you grabbed a few books out on the market about Tae bo and Aerobic Yoga.
My sister has one on Hot yoga that sounds very much like what you were doing.
They do Yoga in a heated room wit aerobics and moves I could only say look like Karate loosely.
Then they do body weight exercises to get started.
All just variations on a theme I am sure.
Shoto Quote: : Treating hundreds of clients/friends over the years, the cause of injuries among other things became glaringly obvious – barring freak accidents the over or misuse of the body driven by a subconscious negative emotional issue(s).
Injuries tend to fall into two gross generalized areas.
Accident and repeditive use injuries.
Accidents you can do nothing about, well...Rehab and that is it.
RUI injuries you have to do more work with them and only physios and OTs can work with those people in Canada.
We tend to frown on "fitness experts" dealing with RUI injuries.
I am glad that your hundreds of friends/clients have found some help from you, I can not wait to read more from you and see what your ideals are in these cases.
Shoto Quote: : I moved to Cornwall in 2004, where I write, treat the occasional client/personal instruction and teach the odd course always stressing the pushing of the body not the punishing of it.
Good for you.
I can not wait to read more and perhaps help you out as well.
I imagine we have a lot to share.
James. J
Even monkeys fall from trees
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