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Cross+Flame View topic - Why Philosophy is Important to Religion
I'm glad to see that there's now a category for philosophical debate here at Cross and Flame.
Philosophy is important for religious debate for many reasons.
Philosophical thinking and philosophical framework allow for a systematic theology which holds far more water than a simple exercise in fallible Scriptural or Patristic proof-texting.
With an analytic approach, we can discover truth to a far higher degree of accuracy and detail than without.
Secondly, religion deals in metaphysical principles.
Any time we discuss spiritual matters, and all that is beyond that which we can see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, we are dealing with metaphysics.
Christianity has long utilized metaphysics to describe its doctrines.
The Trinity, Christ's dual nature, and the procession of the Holy Spirit can only be described with a metaphysic.
The early Church, in the great Creeds she produced, described a belief in a God who was "maker of all things.
. . visible and invisible :" that is, physical and metaphysical.
And in Christ, who was "begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.
. ." The notion of one in being (Latin consubstantialem , Greek homoousios ) is totally metaphysical.
We simply cannot describe cosmic truths without these terms and philosophical framework.
Without this structure, a debate about Christ's divinity doesn't get past the silly, stupid Jesus-was-God-no-he-wasn't stage.
Can anybody else think of other reasons why philosophy is important in religious debate?
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Language: philisophical systems use and define language to explain reality.
To have a theology that uses philisophical language evens the playing field, and brings balance between systematic theology and philisophical systems.
It allows those on the inside of the church and outside to communicate better.
Great thread Nice to see you, crankshaft!
We want more than this world's got to offer / We want more than this world's got to offer
We want more than the wars of our fathers / And everything inside screams for second life, yeah!!!
We were meant to live for so much more / Have we lost ourselves?
Somewhere we live inside.
~ Switchfoot "Meant to Live"
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However no matter how cogent our philosophical paradygms are, can we justify them?
It is one thing to make a cogent worldview (Many Authors of fiction do so), it is another to be able to express it in a fashion that extends futher than mere rational debate If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be...
Then how will anyone find light?
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Well there are not many philosophical minds here or this forum would be rolling along!
If philosophy was perfectly described as in it's true sense , then people would categorically agree that all the writers and speakers of the Bible were ohilosphers.
Lavis knight- you summed it upfor alot of people when you said "I personally hope that whatever force is in charge, that force is very loving , merciful and is willing and able to mend alot of broken hearts...
I am so confused about what is good and what is evil..
All i know is that i love people, it's all that i really understand"
This obviously written before Katrina, Now what do you think about the force that loves all?
This is going on everywhere all over the world.
Is there a philosophical answer to this?
or does the allmighty force apear to wreak havoc, therefore evil?
peace just a thought.
there canuk
DAvid2
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Quote: : This obviously written before Katrina, Now what do you think about the force that loves all?
This is going on everywhere all over the world.
Is there a philosophical answer to this?
or does the allmighty force apear to wreak havoc, therefore evil?
I a m not sure if there is one..any attempt at least for me is only an attempt to justify my worldview at the expense of others pain..
My view can be cohesive but what is it really?
Is it what actually is?
Is it what brings me comfort at the end of the day?
Thus all i can really say is that "I hope" and am condemned trying to look..
I've all but given up looking for God..
Soon looking turns into trying to find a way to look.
I have yet to find even that...
-Lavis Last edited by Lavis Knight on Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be...
Then how will anyone find light?
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Quote: : This obviously written before Katrina, Now what do you think about the force that loves all?
This is going on everywhere all over the world.
Is there a philosophical answer to this?
or does the allmighty force apear to wreak havoc, therefore evil?
So you believe that God is evil?
I would say that Katrina had more to do with the failures of governments to protect their citizens and the failure of man to protect God's creation.
If someone jumps off of a bridge is God evil for not saving them?
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Lavis Quote: : Quote: : This obviously written before Katrina, Now what do you think about the force that loves all?
This is going on everywhere all over the world.
Is there a philosophical answer to this?
or does the allmighty force apear to wreak havoc, therefore evil?
I a m not sure if there is one..any attempt at least for me is only an attempt to justify my worldview at the expense of others pain..
[color=#00b6ff]
you are not alone in this feeling, while we knowmany cannot begin to to comprehend, the balance, or if there is a balance.
My view can be cohesive but what is it really?
Is it what actually is?
Is it what brings me comfort at the end of the day?
[color=#760000]The mind is you best friend or worst enemy, everyone unique.
Set the rules of life to win the game.
For eg, if you say to yourself, " i will be happy walking up, and will look at the day no matter what conditions are and i will be enthusiastic." or if you are a salesperson , you can condition your mind to love objections, and be happy people are saying no.
YThe mind is a vulnerable place but it can be tamed, ie trained.( obviously i cud write 2 more pages) but hope this helps.[/color]
Thus all i can really say is that "I hope" and am condemned trying to look..
I've all but given up looking for God..
Soon looking turns into trying to find a way to look.
I have yet to find even that...
-Lavis
Look outside , There is God, you can see Him if you try, now lookinside there is God, " the kingdom of God id within" jesus said repeating David.
While hope may seem more a word than real, you may be only going through some personal tests.
God is so cool He loves to test His children.
Peace
David2[/color]
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Sorry about that , i don't know how to fix the color error , just experimenting.
oh well.
Dan you read it?
David2
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Look outside , There is God, you can see Him if you try, now lookinside there is God, " the kingdom of God id within" jesus said repeating David.
If i look outside i see alot of things..
Certainly i cannot determine whether or not they are God.
Secondly even if i accept such an assertion i can not begin to know God from looking outside..
There are far too many distinctions, too much conflict between adjectives which would be used to describe the multitude of variables in even my small area of the world.
As for looking inside i do not understand what this means.
There are alot of people on this earth and even in that one cannot begin to understand God (If looking inside is a means of figuring out who God is.)
While hope may seem more a word than real, you may be only going through some personal tests.
God is so cool He loves to test His children.
To make this assertion you mus believe God is out there and that he interacts with people.
How can hardship in and of itself make you come to this conclusion?
-Lavis If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be...
Then how will anyone find light?
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Hardship , humm, Lavis , i sense a state of concern for why how's so much gone on in 'my life' that i can understand.?
If there is a God ,He doesn't seem fair.!
what do i do to relieve my curiosity and the spirit concerns for my future.
Death is inevitable and i need to know why and even where i might go after.
i can't for the life of me tell if anyone is to be trusted?
some of these or all are thoughts runnning through youyr head, and even the church officials cannot address the depths of yoir concern, and so yoi find this chat room a place where you can interact and feed some of yor thoughts to others and find others in the same cruise ship.
well if , i am right, it's ok , if i am wrong oh well
But for some the suggestion of mere faith in Jesus is not working and all things are pointing to more than just prayer and blind faith.
Understood, that is why the bible is writtten to satisfy all souls who are 100% honestly seeking the God that is behind all and will be revealled in time as it is written.
The final and last chapter is unfolding , and people all over the world ar anticipating it to arrive, even the angels ie Hosts that are being directed by God are cheering this time.
For the stars are ascending and descending , a little insight on astrology will tell you that during the last several years and currently manifesting in the sky above are certain combinations and movement of planets, that are in time with these days that are shortened b/c of the bride , that is waiting to be adorned in white raiment.
That is an expression Biblically written and i have taken liberty to paraphrase the 'several expressions'.
so if you like to know more then hold tight or send me a personal and more specific ?, if you like.
i too , share the Canadian air, at this time.
peace and GoodWill,
David2
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However no matter how cogent our philosophical paradygms are, can we justify them?
Yet we cannot escape existing in philosophical paradigms.
I would argue that no person can think without thinking in a philosophical paradigm.
Religion will not regain its old power until it can face change in the same spirit as does Science.
--Alfred North Whitehead
If we seek to keep Christian doctrine unchanged, we shall ensure its abandonment
--Walter Rauschenbusch
No statement, theological or otherwise, should be made that would not be credible in the presence of the burning children
-- Irving Greenberg
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Quote: : Quote: : This obviously written before Katrina, Now what do you think about the force that loves all?
This is going on everywhere all over the world.
Is there a philosophical answer to this?
or does the allmighty force apear to wreak havoc, therefore evil?
So you believe that God is evil?
I would say that Katrina had more to do with the failures of governments to protect their citizens and the failure of man to protect God's creation.
If someone jumps off of a bridge is God evil for not saving them?
Katrina was not a failure of Government but a sword sent by God to cause amage and try and awaken souls to "Who is Boss'
Of course God send's his wrath , do you perceive it as evil ?, then you are looking through murky glasses.
" Vengeance is mine" He says.
Try a little reading in the [acronym="Old Testament"]OT[/acronym], and you would not even think twice about asking that question.
Here let's open the book, ok here Jer 32:42 "for thus saith the lord , like as I have brought all this evil upon this people here's a good one 42:10 " If you will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down and I will plant you, and not pluck you up, for , b/c , I repent me of the evil, that I have done unto you.
Consider 1Sam 2 :6 " the Lord killeth and maketh alive." He brings up and takes down".
So where did the 1000 or so souls, plants, go ?Did He pluck them up and toss, them into another country , condsider these verses Isaiah 22:17 , 18 19,20, 21,22, --18 "He will surely violently turn and toss like a ball into a large country sounds familiar to me, how about you?
But then again , i could not give you all here, and this is nice to remember jer 48:47 " yet , I will bring again the captivity ot Moab, in the latter days, saith the Lord
how beautiful is Jer 49:7 Is wisdom know more in Teman?
Is counsel ( His Laws) perished from the prudent/(chosen) Is their wisdom vanished?
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Quote: : Yet we cannot escape existing in philosophical paradigms.
I would argue that no person can think without thinking in a philosophical paradigm.
I don't wander through here much but I saw that statement and just had to agree with it.
Every time we express an opinion or evaluate a situation we are either expressing our life views that are based on a particular way of thought or philosophy, or we are trying to sort them out.
These philosophies may not be static either, a paradigm shift could be taking place.
Yeah, I am a hick.
I am naive, and I am sincere and its wonderfully unfashionable.
Michelle Shocked
Every reader finds himself.
The writers work is merely a kind of optical instrument that makes it possible for the reader to discern what, without this book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself.
Marcel Proust
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Disernomatic,
i went to a school once that had a fence like that, it reminded of what the instituiton represented, jail, stay here, study with us and we'll be sure your mind remains in that state when you leave.
The more you stay the more you will be engrossed in " our way", and we'll be sure to top it off with four years of wild kick ass drunken parties of eat, drink and party on b/c once you leave you owe us the next 50 years if your labour , well ateast 60-70 % of your time., 'life's a **** , then you die".
___i've always liked that " beach " instead, and hold that closer to what is Truth.
They laugh at you, right out the gate from the beginning.
They, evil, are so smart, the big institutions are on a role to promote marriage and have kids, b/c they see a falling away of the population.
Some big southern churches are promoting abstinence, "just say no, and then if you want to di it just, get married to make it kosher".
Too many waiting too long is not working.
__ oh boy.
There is one True and tried philosophy, and the rest are subjcetive in nature.
Why should there be everyones philophical paradigm.
What's a paradigm shift?
D
peace'
over,
David2
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Quote: : What's a paradigm shift?
It is basically a change in the way you think.
Here are some links about it:
A definition: http://www.taketheleap.com/define.html
"In 1962, Thomas Kuhn wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolution, and fathered, defined and popularized the concept of "paradigm shift" (p.10).
Kuhn argues that scientific advancement is not evolutionary, but rather is a "series of peaceful interludes punctuated by intellectually violent revolutions", and in those revolutions "one conceptual world view is replaced by another".
Think of a Paradigm Shift as a change from one way of thinking to another.
It's a revolution, a transformation, a sort of metamorphosis.
It just does not happen, but rather it is driven by agents of change.
For example, agriculture changed early primitive society.
The primitive Indians existed for centuries roaming the earth constantly hunting and gathering for seasonal foods and water.
However, by 2000 B.C., Middle America was a landscape of very small villages, each surrounded by patchy fields of corn and other vegetables."
A link about Thomas Kuhn from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thomas-kuhn/
An example: http://www.mcu.ac.th/e-book/English/man ...
Adigm.html
"A change of paradigms, according to Thomas Kuhn, occurs in discontinuous, revolutionary breaks called paradigm shifts.4 We may liken a paradigm to a pair of spectacles.
When a paradigm shift occurs, the spectacles get smashed and we begin to look at the world from a different angle.
To have a shift in the industrial era paradigm mentioned above, we have to be critical of the authority of science and technology.
Conceptual, metaphysical, and methodological presuppositions embodied in science and technology have to be interpreted in a new way."
Paradigm shifts can slowly alter your method of thinking or your outlook on anything.
Not everyone knows when they are being led in such a process.
The process itself is neither good nor bad, it only depends on where from and where to the process leads.
To take the above example a hunter/gatherer society to an agricultural society was good, it not only increased the people's survival rate, but also gave them a richer culture.
A paradigm shift can be religious or non-religious, it can be used in business, cults, churches, advertising, science, you name it.
Yeah, I am a hick.
I am naive, and I am sincere and its wonderfully unfashionable.
Michelle Shocked
Every reader finds himself.
The writers work is merely a kind of optical instrument that makes it possible for the reader to discern what, without this book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself.
Marcel Proust
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D.,
so , now i can ask you what paradigm shift your were inferring in your previous post.?
are you 5 or 6 hours ahead of NY time?
David2
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Quote: : D.,
so , now i can ask you what paradigm shift your were inferring in your previous post.?
None in particular.
The reference was general.
Quote: : are you 5 or 6 hours ahead of NY time?
Milano is 6 hours ahead of NY.
Yeah, I am a hick.
I am naive, and I am sincere and its wonderfully unfashionable.
Michelle Shocked
Every reader finds himself.
The writers work is merely a kind of optical instrument that makes it possible for the reader to discern what, without this book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself.
Marcel Proust
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Secondly, religion deals in metaphysical principles.
Any time we discuss spiritual matters, and all that is beyond that which we can see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, we are dealing with metaphysics.
CRANSHAFT 1717 " this is what you said above,
Why do you think that spiritual matters are beyond the sense of touch, taste, sight and so on?
Is not theology and Religion parallel in that sense?
Most religions i have seen are into mythology.
How do you fit mythology into metaphysics?
or are you implying that mythology or the "SUPER- DUPER- NATURAL" , is metaphysics.?
any one welcome to join this one yahoo.
Don't you just love the definition of yahoo.?
my oh my, does society ever make a mockery of itself.
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Quote: : hardship , humm, Lavis , i sense a state of concern for why how's so much gone on in 'my life' that i can understand.?
If there is a God ,He doesn't seem fair.!
what do i do to relieve my curiosity and the spirit concerns for my future.
Death is inevitable and i need to know why and even where i might go after.
i can't for the life of me tell if anyone is to be trusted?
some of these or all are thoughts runnning through youyr head, and even the church officials cannot address the depths of yoir concern, and so yoi find this chat room a place where you can interact and feed some of yor thoughts to others and find others in the same cruise ship.
well if , i am right, it's ok , if i am wrong oh well
But for some the suggestion of mere faith in Jesus is not working and all things are pointing to more than just prayer and blind faith.
Understood, that is why the bible is writtten to satisfy all souls who are 100% honestly seeking the God that is behind all and will be revealled in time as it is written.
The final and last chapter is unfolding , and people all over the world ar anticipating it to arrive, even the angels ie Hosts that are being directed by God are cheering this time.
For the stars are ascending and descending , a little insight on astrology will tell you that during the last several years and currently manifesting in the sky above are certain combinations and movement of planets, that are in time with these days that are shortened b/c of the bride , that is waiting to be adorned in white raiment.
That is an expression Biblically written and i have taken liberty to paraphrase the 'several expressions'.
so if you like to know more then hold tight or send me a personal and more specific ?, if you like.
i too , share the Canadian air, at this time.
peace and GoodWill,
David2
Care to elaborate a little more?
Do you mean to say that all compiled knowledge of God or at least much of it is contained in the bible?
Doesn't that leave you with alot to justify?
If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be...
Then how will anyone find light?
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Quote: : However no matter how cogent our philosophical paradygms are, can we justify them?
Yet we cannot escape existing in philosophical paradigms.
I would argue that no person can think without thinking in a philosophical paradigm.
In the broadest sense i would agree with you.
However wouldn't you say that some may be needlessly complex?
If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be...
Then how will anyone find light?
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Lavis,
regarding your sub line Quote: , about darkness, when people are sick first identifying the disease, then apply the cure, in psychiatry the same applies.
Whet is the root of your depression or mental anguish.
This i best resloved by a philosopher who is realized in God.
Not he 4year phd degreed one.
Nor Dr Pill, Mr quick fix, himself, at 5 pm opposite Oprah.
I would love the chance to sit with him in debate but he wouldn't simply because the physcology or psychiatry training can't box a realized soul but they can 99% of others.
The bottom line, is understanding the make up of the true self , who you are and what you are reacting and acting towards.
This is not taught in any educational institute.
There is no , none , nadda, teaching as to who you are in in western education, hence youare thatr physical thing and all you see is how to make comforts for it a mitigate pain, or avoid pain, ___ the same for the mind, find a balance of pleasure and avoid pain.
If men bring pain , void them, if carrot bring gut pain avoid , if bowoing brings mental satisgaction do it , golf, go for it.
It'all about balance but that is this phycical carnal life of thinking you are a body meant enjoy it and the mind meant to find happiness and some for of emotional love to put your emotion into.
So unless you have good knowlege which is from God and not man's concept of what is pleasure and pain then you will always be faced with line 3 " i am so confused "
just consider the word con as in 'duped or tricked' and 'fused' as the 'mind and body together', and you can't tell which is which.
So which do you serve, the evil say both, God is Spirit He says as Jesus said " what does it profit you to make all kinds of arrangements for physical and financial , mnenta pleasures and forget the "TRue self__
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Lavis,
regarding your sub line Quote: , about darkness, when people are sick first identifying the disease, then apply the cure, in psychiatry the same applies.
Whet is the root of your depression or mental anguish.
How can not knowing something be a disease?
So unless you have good knowlege which is from God and not man's concept of what is pleasure and pain then you will always be faced with line 3 " i am so confused "
That's easy enough to say, but very difficult to display.
just consider the word con as in 'duped or tricked' and 'fused' as the 'mind and body together', and you can't tell which is which.
So which do you serve, the evil say both, God is Spirit He says as Jesus said " what does it profit you to make all kinds of arrangements for physical and financial , mnenta pleasures and forget the "TRue self__
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In the broadest sense i would agree with you.
However wouldn't you say that some may be needlessly complex?
I have yet to see a simple philosophical paradigm.
Religion will not regain its old power until it can face change in the same spirit as does Science.
--Alfred North Whitehead
If we seek to keep Christian doctrine unchanged, we shall ensure its abandonment
--Walter Rauschenbusch
No statement, theological or otherwise, should be made that would not be credible in the presence of the burning children
-- Irving Greenberg
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Yawhist I would say with certainty that models of wisdom do exist (philosophical paradigms).
There are in fact many of them, but as human beings we just dont care to follow or implement them because that requires effort and above all a non self-centred approach.
Even the language we use about such models of wisdom serves to confuse the issue and make it the domain of 'specialists' and thus beyond the reach of mere normal mortals.
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