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Vegan diets make you sick? - VegFamily Vegan Forums
I was wanting to submit this question to the "Ask the Dietician" area, but I am having some problem with the form telling me that there is an error/bad recipient.
So, I figured that I'd just put it out there for general discussion/thoughts.
Anyone got any thoughts on this.
I am curious on your take [anyone here ] on the claim that vegan diets are not healthy in the long run & the cause of failure to thrive in many individuals.
For example, see the following link: http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w...b-scen1b.shtml
Is there any basis in fact for the claim that a balanced vegan diet could cause the kind of health ails that many former vegans state they suffered as a result of their diet (hair loss, decaying teeth, depression, loss of libido, excessive weight loss, etc.)?
If a vegan diet is adequate to support health, or superior to other diets, why do so many former vegans seem to feel that it
caused so much damage to their health?
(I know that I am probably asking for a guess here.)
Having been vegan for about 16 yrs.
Myself, I am assuming that I'd be seeing some health problems by now if I was going to have any.
The former vegans of whom I speak seem to feel that I am one of the few lucky ones who is able to make it on this diet, but it is a rarity.
What I see as so insidious about this line of thinking is that beyondveg & sites like it make statements along the lines of, ' for some the ill effects become apparent within months.
For others it make take years or even longer." What this does is leave people with the fear in the back of their minds that a vegan diet is doing untold damage to their bodies & they may not find out about it until it is too late.
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I read the 1st page of the article, and it looked like something that only a few sentences would suffice instead of paragraph after paragraph.
it sounds like part of the author's "failure to thrive" arguement is that its too hard to be vegetarian.
People at work will look at you funny and laugh at names of foods like "tofurkey" and "tuno." and then the difficulty of finding something to eat at a restaurant.
I think people who stop being vegetarian for the reason that "its too hard" arent really that dedicated.
I was a vegetarian teenager in a meat eating home.
I did none of the grocery shopping, and i found plenty to eat and didnt have many problems.
(well, other than sitting at the table for hours into the evening since i was told i couldnt leave the table till my plate was cleared.
And stubborn me sat there scowling at the dead chicken on my plate till my parents finally gave up.)
i think that some of the people who give up on being vegetarian just go onto the next diet fad and quit that when it gets "too hard" or "too boring." how many people have given up on atkins and the low carb crap because its too hard to not be able to have a sandwich.
Or no more cookies or candy bar.
No pun intended, but it seems like a lot of people want their cake and eat it too.
(not to go off on a tangent, but i also think this is why diet pills like trim spa are so popular.
I laugh every time i hear the radio commercial for the miracle 1 day diet.
It sounds like this magic pill will melt away pounds...
And you can still eat french fries!)
i think there's some truth to the failure to thrive idea.
If someone decides to go vegetarian but isnt familiar with all the substitutes or isnt creative with meals, they will become the vegetarians who just eat pasta, french fries, chips, etc.
Obviously, youre going to get sick if you eat garbage.
The author doesnt really mention exactly what a lot of these former vegetarians ate.
Without mentioning what these people ate, you could make a case for any diet that people failed to thrive if it wasnt followed so that people were eating all the correct nutrients.
then there's also the people whose ideas changed or they just grew out of being vegetarian.
We have a relatively young vegetarian community in syracuse.
(a lot goes along with the hardcore music scene that is really popular here.) whatever their reason for "selling out," a lot of kids end up doing so (and then being ostracised by other hardcore kids who still hold the values true.
Yes, it sounds like a soap opera.) and i'm sure a lot of young people forget about being vegetarian as their old values change.
They trade the hot topic clothes and piercings for a suit so that they can get a "real" job and conform to society.
And sometimes, things like being vegetarian change too.
plus, with whatever positive message there is out there, there will always be someone questioning it and offering a complete opposite approach.
How many Christian websites are there, talking about how God changed their lives?
And then how many anti-Christian websites are there saying that God does not exist or that the Bible is full of lies?
Or what about all the hype around the divinci codes, and various Christian leaders saying that the ideas presented in the book are heresy and the misleading ideas of someone's imagination?
I think that whenever something is popular, some backlash is to be expected.
haha, enough of my "book" on my thoughts.
It really sounds like a response paper you'd do for a college class based on some reading.
(maybe this is my subconscious self telling me to go back to school next semester...)
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Quote: :
i was a vegetarian teenager in a meat eating home.
I did none of the grocery shopping, and i found plenty to eat and didnt have many problems.
(well, other than sitting at the table for hours into the evening since i was told i couldnt leave the table till my plate was cleared.
And stubborn me sat there scowling at the dead chicken on my plate till my parents finally gave up.) It sounds like you & I lived in the same house as teenagers !
I did spend some time "surfing" this site yesterday.
The have a few testimonials from former vegans including former EarthSave chapter leaders, etc.
Who go over their diets, how they became ill eating vegan diets & are now omnivores or o/l vegis.
Some of the diet examples sounded less than balanced to me (all raw or things like that), but not all.
The main point that they seem to be making is that the vegetarian community is responsible for a cover-up of how many people actually become ill while on a vegan diet - that those who are forced to switch back to eating meat are ostrocized & silenced.
I believe that beyondveg refers to them as the "silent majority." I.e.
- the majority of vegetarians/vegans cannot live on a vegi diet long-term without suffering health ails & we are hiding that fact.
As well as most veg*ns are newer to this diet as older veg*ns phase themselves back to eating animal products.
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The idea of a cover up amoungst the vegetarian movement seems fairly ridiculous - I don't know how that could be organised!
Besides, you could argue that any bad diet can lead to 'failure to thrive' - many chronic illnesses are related to poor omniverous diets!
There doesn't seem to be any evidence to back up people's 'failure to thrive' on well balanced vegan and vegetarian diets.
I know a small amount of individuals lack the ability to process B12, but that occurs regardless of the diet followed.
The 'failure to thrive' stories I've read seem very anecdotal, and lacking in specifics;
It's usually a case of someone feeling unwell and deciding that they need meat/animal products to feel better, without pinpointing the cause of their lack of wellbeing.
I'm sceptical!
Fiona
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Yeah, I don't buy it for a second.
I've known a number of former vegetarians that start to "get tired" so give up on the vegetarian diet - decide they need meat for the iron or whatever they think they are lacking.
That is either (1) poor nutrition, i.e.
Not eating a varied, balanced diet and/or (2) ignorance.
They go into their veg-phase expecting it to not work out for them and low and behold - a self-fulfilling prophecy!
Sometimes it is simply lack of imagination that makes people give up on being veg*an, from my experience.
They, as is true for most of us, who grew up in meat-eating households, and are used to forming meals around meat and quickly run out of ideas for creating vegetarian meals so fall back on old habits (and perhaps justify it by saying they are "too tired", i.e.
The veg*an diet wasn't good enough).
I've had people tell me, as soon as I have a case of the sniffles, that I need to eat meat - yup, 'cause no meat eater ever gets sick!
There is just some perception that you cannot be healthy without eating meat (or dairy/eggs for us vegans).
It is what we were taught (and still are), it is what our parents and grandparents were taught and believed, it is what the government tells us (food guides), it is what most doctors tell us (because they have so much nutritional education - ha ha), etc.
Ee gads! Medical professionals!
I have another story - I was being interviewed by a journalist I know about prenatal care as a vegan and she told me that a dietician she contacted told her that I would need to have B12 shots because vegans can't get it any other way!
I mean, did this person not know about - oh - fortified soy/rice beverages?
Vegan analogues which are full of B12 and iron for that matter?
Forget something as "far out" as nutritional yeast - I am talking about things that are readily available even in our local small grocer here - you don't even have to go to a health food store anymore!
The ignorance! From a professional!
(I also had to explain what I meant by fortified soymilk to a doctor when I was explaining what my daughter eats/drinks.)
My husband has been veg*an for close to 20 years and is very healthy.
He rarely gets sick and when he does get a cold, gets over it quickly (our 2.5 year old vegan daughter gets over colds - the rare one she gets - even faster).
And I don't think his diet as that great (I'd prefer it if he drank more water - he's a coffee addict - and ate more fruits/veggies).
My health is far, far better since I became vegan (5+ years) than when I was vegetarian (including being able to stop taking my daily asthma medicine).
Things like hair falling out are no doubt due to long term lack of important nutrients (although there are other causes, this seems to be what they are trying to sell).
That speaks to a poor diet.
I think any peek through the news will provide plenty of examples of the long term (and short term) health hazards of the standard North American diet.
A meat-eating friend of mine recently had to have B12 shots.
Another omni (now ex-) friend was constantly having problems with iron-deficiency anemia.
I, on the other hand, recovered far faster than any one expected from a post-partum hemorrhage WITHOUT taking the very heavy doses of iron I was told to.
Under my midwife's care, I took much lower doses of a vegetable-based iron supplement and was sure to eat iron-rich vegan foods.
Voila!
Anyone spouting claims about the unhealthfulness of vegan diets is being ignorant or trying to scare people into sticking to the meat-eating, fast-food consuming model that is so prevalent.
People don't like being challenged and vegans are challenging the dearly held beliefs of many people.
Ignorant people who just cannot handle someone suggesting they are wrong (even if no vegan is directly challenging them - we do it merely by our existence) are going to fight back.
Our best response is to continue to be healthy, thriving vegans.
That and throwing some of the increasing number of actual scientific studies showing the benefits and healthfulness of vegan diets at them.
Rant over.
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Don't know if this will help, but I have been vegan for 19 years (exept for very minimal dairy intake in my early years-havent had dairy in ages now) and I have never had any health problems related to it.
My dad used to almost obsessively have my blood checked, and I never once got anemia or any other deficiency.
As for the hair falling out, I recently had a hair and scalp treatment at the spa (lucky me!
: ) Gift from my husband) and the massage therapist said that she has never given a scalp treatment where so little hair came out (she showed me the three hairs that came out of my head, and told me that usually she gets a huge handful at the end of the treatment).
I don't know, all of health problems seem almost like an urban legend to me.
We have all heard of it, but no one really sees it.
At least I havent.
All of the long term vegans I know have above average health.
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So, I've really been trying to be open minded about this issue & we had a rather lengthy discussion about the issue on MDC (former vegans & current ones).
It was pretty civil.
One thing that was really suprising to me was a link posted by a former vegan from veganoutreach.
Vegan outreach basically acknowledges that a vegan diet does not work from a health standpoint for all people & cites studies which found that vegans have worse health outcomes in many areas than o/l vegis & people who eat fish.
They state that our health status is about the same as meat eaters!
This was really shocking to me.
There were, of course, some confounding factors that need to be looked into further.
This article can be found at:
http://veganoutreach.org/healthargument.html
I also contacted Dr.
Michael Klapper via email to ask whether his study into the health of vegan diets is truly looking at why people fail to thrive on a vegan diet, which is what beyondveg.com says he is studying.
I got a very nice response from Dr.
Klapper. A portion of his email response was, "Yes, I am trying to discern who is thriving on a vegan diet - and why.
That is, what are they eating, what supplements are they taking, etc.
The other side of the issue is of even greater interest to me - who is NOT doing well on a vegan diet (the "failure-to-thrive" vegan syndrome) - and why.
"
I must admit that this whole discussion has made me a tad more compassionate & less sceptical of failed vegans.
Perhaps this belongs in the health section of the discussion boards...
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Christa, when will Dr.
Klaper's study be completed?
I assume it will take several years?
The statement in the link you posted about vegans not living any longer than omnis shook me up.
I always assumed that "former" veg's just didn't pay attention to their diet.
We came to a vegan diet out of health concerns (initally prompted by baby's milk allergy).
We've been diligent about our diet for nearly 4 years now.
Animal-product free as well as no hydrogenated oils, no dyes, yada yada.
Almost all organic, whole grains, etc.
I read so often that people doing this (vegan diet) for health reasons aren't as committed as people doing this for moral reasons, but I can't imagine anyone knowingly endangering the health of their child (and I think the SAD does).
That's why I'm so shook up!
Having said that, ds is the image of health and at almost 5 years, he's never had meat or dairy.
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I wonder if lack of fats is the reason that some have failed on a vegan diet?
Some of the symptoms (like hair falling out, skin problems, etc that we are hearing about sound like symptoms of fat deficiency to me) The vegans that I know are all very healthy, but they all also are careful to take plenty of flax oil and eat nuts and seeds.
I personally put flax oil on my daughters food several times a day, as well as my own and we both are doing great.
We also take high quality high potency vitamins, so that may also add extra protection.
I have to admit, the article did surprise me!
Either way, I'm not vegan to live longer than the average person.
I'm vegan for the animals that I cannot bear to kill for my food!
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According to the book 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health', the non vegetarians in the five studies were not typical of their countries - they ate less meat and more fruit and vegetables, and both the vegetarians and non vegetarians lived about 6 years longer than the general population.
I do understand that the 'failure to thrive' thing is real enough for those who change their vegan diet because of it.
But I still think the term can be highly subjective.
You could feel unwell on a vegan diet and decide to reject it altogether or you could find out what could be lacking (B12, iron, EFAs etc) and focus on the shortfalls.
The 'failure to thrive' phrase does sound so dramatic.
A non-vegetarian with a food allergy, intolerance, deficiency etc, wouldn't be considered 'failure to thrive' and probably wouldn't overhaul their entire diet because of it.
I do find it hard to believe there's something inherently wrong with a vegan diet.
I'm sure the Klapper study will be very illuminating.
Fiona
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Quote: :
According to the book 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health', the non vegetarians in the five studies were not typical of their countries - they ate less meat and more fruit and vegetables, and both the vegetarians and non vegetarians lived about 6 years longer than the general population.
That's good to know.
I didn't look into the studies that the vegan outreach article cited, so it is good to have some more info on them.
I am not sure when Dr.
KIapper's study will be completed.
It sounds pretty long-term to me, so it may be quite a while.
I do plan to keep in touch with him to see what results he gets.
I certainly am not trying to scare anyone out of a vegan diet (I've been vegetarian for 19 yrs myself & vegan for 16 of those 19 yrs.) I just find this topic very confusing & interesting & I am trying not to by myopic in my dietary outlook.
It is good to have a "safe" place to discuss the health of a vegan diet w/out being attacked.
BTW, my 6 y/o & 4 y/o vegi girls both look great, too.
I can't imagine that their diets have harmed their health, but this whole discussion has made me more conscious of supplementing, which I admit that I have never been too good about.
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Quote: :
IWe also take high quality high potency vitamins, so that may also add extra protection.
Sarahrose, would you recommend your vitamins?
I've been giving my ds a b-12 dot 3 days a week, plus he drinks fortified soymilk.
I also give him JuicePlus chewables, a whole foods supplement ( https://www.juiceplus.com/medical/+lk88480 ).
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Quote: :
You could feel unwell on a vegan diet and decide to reject it altogether or you could find out what could be lacking (B12, iron, EFAs etc) and focus on the shortfalls.
Fiona, good point!
I've been really tired for several months and over the course of a year have had my blood tested and found to be low in iron.
I finally took it upon myself to find a good iron supplement( http://www.florahealth.com/flora/hom...cts/R64771.asp ), and now, a month later, I feel great!
And no, it never occurred to me to start eating animals again!
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Quote: :
I certainly am not trying to scare anyone out of a vegan diet Christa, you haven't scared me off!
I'm glad they're doing research, and long-term at that, or it would be useless.
But I do wish they had started about 50 years ago!!
Thanks for the link.
I'm working my way through all the articles...
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I've also thought more about supplementing since that discussion.
I just got some vegan Cal/Mag tablets since I know I don't get quite enough.
However, what kills me is that my mom has osteoporosis but she's been eating meat and milk all her life.
But if *I* got it, they'd blame it on my vegan diet.
Sigh!
But I certainly have become more aware since posting here - especially in preparation for pregnancy, or perhaps adoption.
After reading that horrific story on vegfamily about that wonderful vegetarian couple that tried to adopt their FAS foster son....I want to be as prepared as possible.
And then of course, one gets this little paranoid voice in the back of one's head - for example, I've been worried that my hair is a bit thinner than it used to be.
But it's also a different style than it used to be and on top of that, although I've become vegan, my diet is WAY better than it ever was when I was simply veggie - I never took my vitamins or ate huge green salads, etc.
But at least if I'm better with my supplements I won't listen to it.
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