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ChessPub Forum - English vs Kings Indian Defence
I have decided to create this thread following a comment from Winawer 77 in another thread.
When creating an English opening repertoire (or anything non 1.e4), I think the key question you need to answer is how to meet the King's Indian setup.
I also think that this is the potential weak point of Kosten's repertoire - not so much because of the actual line itself (he recommends Bg5) but because the KID is so popular, I think a more potent weapon is required.
I am not sure if I agree a Kings Indian structure is the only critical response for a repertoire with 1c4 but its undeniably very important.
I cannot help feeling there is lot more information out there for KID players than English players.
For example, we have the recent book Fighting the Anti-Kings Indians: by Yelena Dembo which I hear has good coverage for KID players meeting 1c4 or 1N-f3.
Has anyone read this yet?
How detailed is Dembo's coverage of potential approaches by white in the English or Reti?
I think Nigel Davies book 'The Dynamic Reti' is one that comes to mind with good coverage for tackling a KID formation ( a system used by Reti and Smyslov based on an early b4).
Any other suggestions?
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Thanks for creating this thread, Calendonian.
Its an important question - how can an English player meet the King's Indian while at the same time not getting move ordered out of his other English lines?
I'd be interested to hear what Dembo covers in 'Fighting the Anti-Kings Indians'.
I initially though this would be restricted to 1.d4 lines, a kind of Cox's 'Dealing with d4 Deviations' only for ...g6 players (Cox's book is for Nimzo/QID players with ...e6).
Here are the main lines I can think of -
Closed Sicilian c4,Nf3,g3,Bg2,0-0,Nc3,d3 (Strategic Opening Repertoire)
Closed Sicilian with e3 - c4,g3,Bg2,Nc3,e3,Nge2 (Soltis?!)
Kosten's Bg5 - useful for keeping open transpositions to a Botvinnik setup (Dynamic English)
Extended Reti with b4 - Nf3,c4,b4 (Dynamic Reti)
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I do not like the Bg5 move to much.
It can also be replaced by an early Rb1, although that also has some disadvantages.
If you do not mind playing an equal position, then also the botwinnik can be used, including against the c5-lines (see also Soltis).
However both Palliser and Dzindzichashvili give reasonable lines how to play against the botwinnik in the symmetrical english.
The white fianchetto plays nice against the KI, however it is quite some work, to sort out all variations, how to play.
However most variations play intuitively.
Botwinnik used sometimes early b3 lines in the KI fianchetto lines, which cut down on the work, and those lines are also quite nice to play.
Dembo is not out yet I believe.
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Dembo is not out yet I believe.
The book came out in the European Union in July.
However, in the USA the publication date is the 20th of August.
http://www.everymanchess.com/display.php?id=470
Even in the US that does not give white players long before black opponents will be trying out the suggested repertoire vs 1c4/1N-f3
Put your order in now I say!
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For sure the Dembo book is out!
I bought it at a chess tournament in Dieren (Netherlands), already about 2 weeks ago.
:)
The variations start (of course) after 1.c4 Nf6 2.
Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0
Then she covers:
A:5.Nf3
B:5.e3
C:5.e4
D:5.d3
Because of copyright I guess I can't tell more!
;)
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Hello,
Yelena pretty much knocks out the Bg5 thing.
Not very suprising really it was recommended some years ago, and wasn't very impressive in the first place.
(Think Tony Kosten was running out of allowed pages for his book basically.
So think was a excellent repetoire book for the small number of pages used.
It's normal that a new opening book should question previous analysis, otherwise it would not be a very worthwhile new book.)
Also covers the Botvinnik set-up that is in the dynamic english, and has some good recommendations there too.
Bye John S
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Nice Dikkie!
By the way, now I know why I could not find the book in Dieren.
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I havent got Dembo's book yet but on balance I am tempted to try 5e3 myself.
I haven't had great success with 5d3 and queenside expansion plans as the inveitable KID attack on the kingside can become quite rampant.
I think 5 e3 is very flexible as its a sound system vs a follow up ...e5, ...c6, or ...c5 by black
5e4 seems less desirable when black has not played ...N-c6.
Although of course a Botvinnik structure is still possible here too.
I confess to even playing 2c4 against the Sicilian in the odd 1e4 I play!
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Systems with d3 against the KID are lame, you have to go into the KID Fianchetto lines with d4 which can be tricky for an unprepared black player and might be whites best try for an edge.
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Annihilator wrote : Systems with d3 against the KID are lame, you have to go into the KID Fianchetto lines with d4 which can be tricky for an unprepared black player and might be whites best try for an edge.
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Annihilator wrote : Systems with d3 against the KID are lame, you have to go into the KID Fianchetto lines with d4 which can be tricky for an unprepared black player and might be whites best try for an edge.
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Markovich wrote : [Quote: author=Annihilator link=1218372742/0#8 date=1220041463]Systems with d3 against the KID are lame, you have to go into the KID Fianchetto lines with d4 which can be tricky for an unprepared black player and might be whites best try for an edge.
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CheckMate wrote : [Quote: author=Annihilator link=1218372742/0#8 date=1220041463]Systems with d3 against the KID are lame, you have to go into the KID Fianchetto lines with d4 which can be tricky for an unprepared black player and might be whites best try for an edge.
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Black_Widow wrote : With the correct move order you can avoid the Grunfeld.
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Quote: : With the correct move order you can avoid the Grunfeld.
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An example move order I use is:
1.
C4 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3.
Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5.
D4 c6 6. e4 d5?!
However 5 ..
Nc6 as you suggested is possible indeed, leading to the Grunfeld.
A very clever move-order to trick white in the Grunfeld.
But is this a variation what black wants?
Since I like postions like that with white.
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Black_Widow wrote : An example move order I use is:
1.
C4 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3.
Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5.
D4 c6 6. e4 d5?!
However 5 ..
Nc6 as you suggested is possible indeed, leading to the Grunfeld.
A very clever move-order to trick white in the Grunfeld.
But is this a variation what black wants?
Since I like postions like that with white.
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In his book, Jangjava examines the position after 1.
C4 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3.
Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5.
D4 Nc6 6. Nf3 d5 7.
Cxd5 Nxd5 8. o-o in a note (via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Nf3 o-o 7.o-o Nc6 8.Nc3) and he says that 8...Nxc3 (trying to prove that White's move order is suboptimal) is not good and that Black should stay in the main line with 8...Nb6.
About Black trying longer to keep back the d-pawn (in order to play either ...d6 or ...d5 according to circumstances), here is a correspondence game with comments (in French) with a World Champion leading the Black pieces.
http://ajec-echecs.org/analyses/et.php
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I hate to throw this out there....but why not just play into the KID?
It might sound lame, but White is doing well in several lines (unless your opponent is Radjabov).
;)
I play Nc3, a quick e2-e4 (to avoid the Grunfeld), and go for it.
I think the Bayonet Attack is an excellent system for White and with all the resources out there (many, many more than for the 1.c4/1.Nf3 anti-KID stuff) it isn't THAT hard to learn how to play.
It's also worth mentioning that ChessPub's Mikhalevski puts out great stuff on the KID every month, so you don't have to look very far for help.
Anyway, I love the English and I've tried the Botvinnik and other anti-KID lines but I never felt great about them (nor scored well).
But eventually, after reading Khalifman and looking at the theory, I gave up and simply went for the KID proper (with much better success).
To Quote: GM Darth Vader: "If you only knew the POWER of the dark side "
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