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Religion and martial arts - Martial Arts Planet
This discussion began as a tangent in another thread.
Spinmaster mentioned that one of his criteria for a place to train was:
Quote: : 2.
The instructor had to respect my religious convictions relating to martial arts (I refuse to participate in any rituals stemming from non-Christian worship).
I'll admit that, at first glance, my reaction was "I have never heard of that!" But after thinking about it, I remembered that the Wai khru ram muay in Muay Thai arguably has Buddhist roots, as does the armband some Muay Thai fighters wear.
And then I remembered that when the Fight Quest guys (a Discovery Channel show) went to China, one trained at the Shaolin Temple, but had to be ordained as a disciple before training there.
At 6:50:
YouTube - Fight Quest Kung Fu of China Part 1
So here's some discussion points to get the ball rolling:
* Do any of the traditions in your art have a religious origin?
* If so, if the religious source is not your own religion, do you have any qualms about the particular practice, or do you just see it as part of the tradition of the art?
* Have you ever not trained somewhere because of a religious or quasi-religious practice associated with the training with which you weren't comfortable?
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I don't see how Buddhism would affect a person's religous beliefs as Buddhism isn't worship, it's a religion, if you can call it that, of being kind.
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Afaik, a lot of karate practices, such as the mokuso meditation period, and the kamiza shrine some dojos use to honor style heads stem from buddhism and shintoism.
Not sure though, and it's done as a sign of respect, not as a sign of belonging to said religion.
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Quote: : I don't see how Buddhism would affect a person's religous beliefs as Buddhism isn't worship, it's a religion, if you can call it that, of being kind.
I wouldn't agree with that.
Theravada Buddhism in Thailand and various Mahayana sects in China (particularly the Pure Land sect) and Tibet definitely involve a lot of prayer and the like.
The idea that Buddhism is just a philosophy being kind is kind of New Age Buddhism-lite in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Thailand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China
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The Buddhism taught by Buddha never taught of a God.
A lot of Buddhist -based belief are merely a combined religion.
Buddhists pray as a form of meditation to discover enlightenment.
But just as certain sects of Buddhism pray to a God or many Gods, you can be Christian Buddhist, or Jewish Buddhist.
Buddhism itself, based on original teaching, does not teach prayer to God or many Gods.
The person chooses to pray to God.
Unless I've missed something in my research, which is entirely possible.
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You're talking about your interpretation certain foundational texts in Buddhism.
I'm talking about Buddhism as currently practiced by 350 million people today worldwide.
The Buddhism which is practiced today (or 100 years ago) in China, Tibet, Thailand, etc is definitely a religion, even if you feel it's not entirely faithful to the original texts (and whether Buddhism as practiced in Thailand or China is "real Buddhism" based on your interpretation of certain texts is a question for a different thread in a different sub-forum).
And Buddhism, as a practiced religion, has rituals which could become incorporated into a martial art as part of that martial art's tradition.
That's what I was driving at.
EDIT: To the extent that I opened the door to the "what is Buddhism" discussion in my previous post, my bad.
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Buddhism, god or no god, qualifies as a religion.
From what I know, Kosterz is correct insofar that there is no god in Buddhism, however many people tend to adopt local god-based religions in addition to their Buddhism (e.g.
Shinto and Buddhism).
That being said, I think there is at least one branch of Buddhism that does include a deity, although I'm not sure about the justification or origin of the deity.
I also agree with Mitlov that insisting that Buddhism is purely a philosophy typically stems from the fashionable western New Age Buddhism.
I'm sure Buddhism can legitimately be practised as a philosophy rather than a religion, but there is no doubt that Buddhism is by and large a religion.
As for the original question, it depends what your mean by worship.
If you're talking about bowing and chanting then I really do not see a problem.
Such practices can be engaged in a non-religious sense and anyone who is not religious, or who has some other religion could just do that, although I suspect some people who are more religious may even object to activity that even remotely relates to a religion or philosophy that is different to their own religion.
None of this wouldn't effect me anyway, partly because I'm not training at the moment, but mainly because I wouldn't likely train in a style that would include such activities anyway, however if I did, since I'm not religious I wouldn't have any reason not to participate.
None of my past training (in Tang Soo Do, Wing Chun and BJJ) includes anything even remotely religious in nature.
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Quote: : The Buddhism taught by Buddha never taught of a God.
A lot of Buddhist -based belief are merely a combined religion.
Buddhists pray as a form of meditation to discover enlightenment.
But just as certain sects of Buddhism pray to a God or many Gods, you can be Christian Buddhist, or Jewish Buddhist.
Buddhism itself, based on original teaching, does not teach prayer to God or many Gods.
The person chooses to pray to God.
Unless I've missed something in my research, which is entirely possible.
Anyway,in those foundational texts of Buddhism,Buddha outlined a path to salvation,the end game of which is quite different from the other two salvation religions.I fail to see how a person could,for example, be a Christian Buddhist unless the Christianic (sp?) concept/explanation of salvation is jettisoned in favor of the Buddha's.In which case the individual would be Buddhist,not Buddhist Christian.And vice versa.
To Mitlov's inquiry:
1).I can't say for sure if any of the ritual salutes/signs in my MA background stem from any actual religious roots,rather than Shaolin Temple myth,seems there's more political symbolism in motions and gestures for ID purposes.Other than those ritualistic practices,and bowing in and such,that's it,I've been spared rituals.Other than burning incense at The General's shrine,Oops,not as innocent as I thought.
2)I looked at burning incense as part of the tradition,symbolism,paying respects.While it is undeniably a religious act at its heart,I performed it with no religious convictions.Not unlike planting flowers on graves on Memorial Day
3)Never encountered that,but I guess comfortability would depend on the practice-(not really into human sacrifice,among other things)-and the overall approach and vibe of the practitioners,is it culty,awe level,etc.
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As to my third inquiry, I just remembered one instance.
One of the universities I was looking at going to was the University of Michigan (I ended up going elsewhere).
At the time, they had a Silat group there.
Judging from the web page, the leader of the Silat group considered the practice of Sufi Islam to be fundamentally intertwined with Silat training, and did not draw a line between teaching Sufism and teaching Silat.
For me, not being Muslim, I wasn't willing to train with an instructor who taught forms training as a method of getting a closer relationship with Allah/God in the Sufi tradition.
The U Mich Silat website isn't up any more, but the images are still up, so you can at least get a flavor of what I saw when I was looking in 1999: http://www.umich.edu/~silat/
(I ended up going to Tufts and training with a bunch of hard-partying and highly-secular TKD guys, so it all worked out in the end )
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Quote: : The Buddhism taught by Buddha never taught of a God.
A lot of Buddhist -based belief are merely a combined religion.
Buddhists pray as a form of meditation to discover enlightenment.
But just as certain sects of Buddhism pray to a God or many Gods, you can be Christian Buddhist, or Jewish Buddhist.
Buddhism itself, based on original teaching, does not teach prayer to God or many Gods.
The person chooses to pray to God.
Unless I've missed something in my research, which is entirely possible.
Quote: : Medico Anyway,in those foundational texts of Buddhism,Buddha outlined a path to salvation,the end game of which is quite different from the other two salvation religions.I fail to see how a person could,for example, be a Christian Buddhist unless the Christianic (sp?) concept/explanation of salvation is jettisoned in favor of the Buddha's.In which case the individual would be Buddhist,not Buddhist Christian.And vice versa.
^ Exactly, it is fundamental to Christianity that there is only one way to Salvation, that being the realization that one has broken God's law, and as such is deserving of eternal separation from God, and it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God's Son, taking our place, and the accepting of him as Lord and Master, that we can be reconciled with God.
The bible is explicit that there is no other way, so calling yourself a 'Buddhist Christian' would be a gross contradiction.
Quote: :
So here's some discussion points to get the ball rolling:
1) Do any of the traditions in your art have a religious origin?
2) If so, if the religious source is not your own religion, do you have any qualms about the particular practice, or do you just see it as part of the tradition of the art?
3) Have you ever not trained somewhere because of a religious or quasi-religious practice associated with the training with which you weren't comfortable?
1) I practice Krav Maga, which has military origins, no religious origins that I know of.
2) N/A
3) If you didn't work it out from my response to a previous post, I am a Christian, not nominal, I do actually try to live out my faith day by day.
When I was searching for a Martial Art, this was a factor, I didn't want anything with Meditation, or icon worship of any kind.
This is partly why I was drawn to Krav Maga, as it has no real religious origins.
Where I draw the line is this: I have no problem at all with a bow, to show respect, in a similar manner to one might salute, or bow to royalty or shake hands or whatever.
At Krav we do bow briefly at the beginning and end, which is fine.
I do have a problem with full on kneeling and scraping head on floor kind of bowing, especially to teacher or innanimate object like a weapon or picture or whatever, whether you 'mean' it or not, I believe that constitutes an act of worship, and even if you don't mean it, it implies that you endorse that act or whatever by taking part.
I can clarify more later if need be.
EDIT: I am considering taking on a more 'traditional' art, probably Wing Chun/Kung Fu, and although it does have its roots in Buddhism, I don't have a problem provided it is separated, ie.
We don't have to practice Buddhism to take part, but learning the techniques/forms etc.
I don't have a problem with at all.
Showing respect to an instructor, or even a former instructor/founder, I don't really have a problem with, but if its too ritualistic I probably wouldn't be comfortable.
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Quote: : whether you 'mean' it or not, I believe that constitutes an act of worship, and even if you don't mean it, it implies that you endorse that act or whatever by taking part.
I can clarify more later if need be.
Very good point here.
Mitlov, progdan's point above is something I should have thought to bring up when you said "if you have no intent in your mind and soul to worship, it is not worship".
Also keep in mind that the early teachers of the art did indeed intend it for worship...
Saying it is just for "respect" and all that, I'm guessing was intended to make it more acceptable to westerners.
Some may say they only do it for tradition, without ascribing meaning to it...
But the "tradition" was worship...
See what I mean?
Also re the "respect" issue.
I commented before that I'm okay bowing to another person (provided eye contact is kept, etc.) as a gesture of respect, greeting, whatever.
However, to say one bows to an inanimate object such as a weapon in "respect" is a bit odd...
I certainly respect a gun, but I do not bow to it, nor do I know anyone who does.
This leads me to believe that the "respect" shown by bowing to swords, etc.
Is not for the damage they can do, but for the "spirit" of the weapon or some such idea.
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