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Sacrificing Sexuality: Religion's Sexual Brutality - religion Discussion Forum

The great Italian singer Cecilia Bartoli has just released a brilliant and chilling album entitled Sacrificium.

The sacrifice referred to is the sexual organ of 6-8 year old boys who were destined to become singers.

(in the baroque era). The Catholic church, not permitted to have female singers, could still have a voluptuous soprano line, and never mind how. I'd rather not describe the process.

Let's just say it makes circumcision look fun.

(Hint: they were called "Castati." Ouch!) This is a lovely combination of sexism (prohibition of females expressing themselves in the church) and general Sexual Repression, perhaps the prime mechanism for control and repression employed by many churches in the history of humankind. Does the "symbolic" nature of this literal "operation" resonate with you on a metaphorical level, in terms of the way religions have twisted the normal processes of human sexuality in order to exert control over their members' members. It seems to me, much as I adore the Catholic Church, that they were the most developed in terms of making any form of sexuality a transgression, defined as a sin and necessitating confession and absolution. And we must remember that the founding "act" of Christendom, Mary's impregnation, happened without any physical contact.

Magic. (Do you think anyone will guess that Henry James initiated this thread?

He who made a career out of writing about repressed sexuality.

And a life out of living with repressed sexuality.

And do you think it will be censored by Amazon?)

>>And we must remember that the founding "act" of Christendom, Mary's impregnation, happened without any physical contact.<< It should also be remembered that virgin births--especially of "gods"--were a pretty common theme in religion/mythology before the religion/mythology of Christianity came about.

TDaniel correctly notes that "virgin births--especially of "gods"--were a pretty common theme in religion/mythology before the religion/mythology of Christianity came about." Another instance of delusion.

Who believes that the ancient version of Bill Clinton or Warren Beatty - Zeus or Odin for instance - would pass up a chance for Carnal Knowledge of the reigning Playmate of their age in order to preserve "purity?" How dumb do they think we are? Why go through the trouble of being a God if you can't have "real sex" with whatever acolyte or staff member or groupie you choose? I know I wouldn't.

Actually,Hindu mythology has one of the most ancient accounts of a "virgin impregnation"--centuries before Israel existed,before Mary was born.

It's in the Mahabharata,and in the land that gave us the Kama Sutra.

Henry James says: How dumb do they think we are? Having read your "observations" on a variety of religious subjects, are you sure you want to know the answer?

The castrati weren't impotent;it did render them sterile.

Farinelli was famous for his (female) groupies.

He was the promiscuous Mick Jagger of his day,but he had the falsetto of a Bee Gee. "I'm a woman's man"-The Bee Gees,"Stayin' Alive"

Hi Professor! I've been quite fascinated with the history of the castrati for some time now.

I've often wondered about the sexism inherent in the whole exercise.

Yes, women were not allowed to perform -- not just in the churches, but not even in the opera houses in Italy as a result of the laws of the Catholic church.

And yet, the act of "creating" castrati was permitted;

Priests often assisted in this heinous act, and it was not unheard of for clergy to have "romances" with these boys. What's really tragic about a lot of this is that parents often sold their children to be "made" into castrati.

Even worse, many of these children couldn't be trained to sing at the required skill level, but it was too late by the time that was discovered.

On top of it all, these men were considered freaks -- manmade freaks, but freaks nonetheless.

They were alternately adored and scorned, worshipped and mocked. The saddest thing is, they were not consenting adults who decided to become castrati.

Every single one of them was drugged and surgically altered against his will.

We will never know how many children died as well;

Many bled to death, others never regained consciousness from the drug used to put them out.

The bodies were never given proper burials.

Instead, they were surreptitiously dumped.

The whole thing was a purposeless exercise for preventing women from singing in front of others.

Insane.

The Church has always made it an important part of its control over the laity to control the sexual aspect of human nature.

The Marquis de Sade knew this -- if you read his works, you'll read about all kinds of sexual deviance, interspersed with breaks where the characters sit around and talk about politics.

Why? Because he knew that sexual control was the power seat for governments and churches. The RCC church's sanction against birth control is the last stand in the struggle to control sexual drives.

With the rising tide of awareness about the sexual misconduct of priests, they are fast losing credibility in the only remaining area where they could still wield power and authority. Control people's sex drives, and you can control the world.

Henry James says: How dumb do they think we are? Kevin Bold: Having read your "observations" on a variety of religious subjects, are you sure you want to know the answer? Sammeh: Oh, the irony...

Kevin, you've put your foot in your mouth so much here, I'm surprised you don't taste-test Adidas for a living.

"Control people's sex drives,and you can control the world"-Islamic fundamentalism shows that,doesn't it?

When Saudi law executes consenting gay couples,yet lets adult men marry 10 year old girls.

Or the 12 yr old Yemeni girl who died in childbirth (I'd hardly call myself pro-choice,but that little girl should've had CHOICE) Or in Iran,where gay men have to get transsexual surgery to save their lives. There are more petty types like Christopher West,John Kippley (Couple to Couple League) and Gregory Popcak,who think MARRIED HETEROSEXUALS who engage in oral&anal sex are terrible sinners--despite the fact the Bible is silent on the subject.

Luckily they're NOT clergy.

They'd have more power if they were.

Kevin I love you.

Are you gay? I think there has been a pretty comprehensive plebiscite on your intelligence.

Would you like me to tabulate it for you? What are you doing later?

Sammeh: Oh, the irony...

Kevin, you've put your foot in your mouth so much here, I'm surprised you don't taste-test Adidas for a living. HJ: Kevin, since I am so attracted to you, I'd recommend that you not match "wits" with any entity quicker than the Energizer Bunny.

NG notes "The bodies were never given proper burials.

Instead, they were surreptitiously dumped.

The whole thing was a purposeless exercise for preventing women from singing in front of others.

Insane." As a woman, NG has more moral authority than I in making this point. BUT...how could any person of moral sensitivity not be morally outraged by this history, which continues up until the present day, with the abuse of altar boys and the denial of the priesthood to women in the Catholic (and MANY other) church. WHERE is the outrage?

Do we need to cut off your genitals?

You said it, Amaranth.

Then there are even more examples of that type of control: female circumcision;

The demand for male circumcision (that's an interesting one, isn't it?);

And the fact that the filthiest curse words always have to do with women's genitalia. The idea that one of the worst insults you can use on a man is to infer that he is a woman, or vice versa, is an interesting type of oppression...one that many "Christians" use here on a regular basis.

The blurring of gender not only frightens them, but they also like to use it as a weapon against others. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Yes, HJ, It's another embarassing episode in the history of the church, one that has not been discussed much.

Not sure why, though.

You know, now that I think about it, it's also about the abortion debate, isn't it?

The right of a woman to control her own body. Maybe that's been the main idea of religiously conservative churches all along -- to take the focus away from the concept of a woman controlling her own body by putting the focus on the fetus. There's been an historical tug-of-war over the collective body of women and who will be in control of that body throughout the history of humankind.

Amaranth: The castrati weren't impotent;it did render them sterile.

Farinelli was famous for his (female) groupies.

He was the promiscuous Mick Jagger of his day,but he had the falsetto of a Bee Gee. SK: I hate to disillusion you, but according to the Wiki article, Farinelli's sexual exploits (and those of other castrati) were more the stuff of legend than actuality. "Modern endocrinology would suggest that the castrati's much-vaunted sexual prowess was more the stuff of legend than reality - in addition to lacking a hormonal (but not a socio-psychological) sex drive, a castrato's remaining genitalia will not develop in size or develop the mechanism to achieve an erection.[13"

As I said before,castrati weren't rendered impotent.

Merely sterile. Farinelli,the famous castrato of the Renaissance,had many female lovers--and he was quite capable of sleeping with them.

Indeed,some envied the fact he could leap into bed with them without the risk of impregnation!

<<" Amaranth says: "Control people's sex drives,and you can control the world"-Islamic fundamentalism shows that,doesn't it?

When Saudi law executes consenting gay couples,yet lets adult men marry 10 year old girls.

Or the 12 yr old Yemeni girl who died in childbirth (I'd hardly call myself pro-choice,but that little girl should've had CHOICE) Or in Iran,where gay men have to get transsexual surgery to save their lives.">> Islamic fundamentalism or any other fundamentalism clearly shows that you DO NOT control the world with sexuality.

Those cultures and cults that try, are losers in the world and not at the forefront of civilization. Super progress was made once people got free of the vice grip that the Church had around sexuality.

Islam is still in that grip. <<" Nietzsche's Girlfriend says: You said it, Amaranth.

Then there are even more examples of that type of control: female circumcision;

The demand for male circumcision (that's an interesting one, isn't it?);

And the fact that the filthiest curse words always have to do with women's genitalia.">> Not true! Arab curses are very colorful such as: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your groin." Curses are different, depending on the culture.

The Germans, for example, seem to concentrate on fecal matter. <<"The idea that one of the worst insults you can use on a man is to infer that he is a woman, or vice versa, is an interesting type of oppression...one that many "Christians" use here on a regular basis.

The blurring of gender not only frightens them, but they also like to use it as a weapon against others. Says a lot, doesn't it?">> Again, maybe. Being called a "pr!ck" or a "schmeckel" is pretty derogatory. <<" Amaranth says: As I said before,castrati weren't rendered impotent.

Merely sterile. Farinelli,the famous castrato of the Renaissance,had many female lovers--and he was quite capable of sleeping with them.

Indeed,some envied the fact he could leap into bed with them without the risk of impregnation! ">> Apparently the use of other organs was employed for sexual activity because, they were impotent.

Women tend to like that kind of lovemaking.

;)

What I read about the castrati and their sexual behaviours was that they were able to perform while they were young, but apparently, there would come a time when the drive would simply go away, never to return.

As a result, there was some encouragement to have sex whenever the mood struck, since it was acknowledged that it was a temporary thing and would not last throughout life.

But who knows for sure? EDIT: I'm thinking that this may have been dependent upon the age of the castrato at the time of "surgery."

Oh,here's a desperate Catholic housewife defending female circumcision: Domestic Tranquility: A Brief Against Feminism Really,she defends it.

Luckily,even the most conservative Catholics have engaged in "benign" neglect towards her.

She's sort of a pariah...

For once,fundies show some decency. "The demand for male circumcision"-Look up the Bible story (probably Genesis) in which the Israelites symbolize their victory with a pile of their enemies' foreskins. Some cuss words do invoke male genitalia...

Usually they're applied to Jon Gosselin.... "Blurring of gender frightens them"-Well,that explains the Anglicans afraid of ordained females and gay men.

Or the fact that A LOT of antigay marriage arguments involve gender roles.

"Islamic fundamentalism or any other fundamentalism clearly shows that you DO NOT control the world with sexuality.

Those cultures and cults that try, are losers in the world and not at the forefront of civilization."

<<" Nietzsche's Girlfriend says: "Islamic fundamentalism or any other fundamentalism clearly shows that you DO NOT control the world with sexuality.

Those cultures and cults that try, are losers in the world and not at the forefront of civilization." Isabella, Don't tell the Catholic Church that.">> They know it.

No one has to tell them, as evidenced by their having lowered themselves to recruiting Anglicans.

;) People have voted with their feet and their sexuality.

The "Catholic" Italians have the lowest birth rate in Europe.

;)

Isabella tellingly and eloquently notes "Islamic fundamentalism or any other fundamentalism clearly shows that you DO NOT control the world with sexuality.

Those cultures and cults that try, are losers in the world and not at the forefront of civilization. Super progress was made once people got free of the vice grip that the Church had around sexuality.

Islam is still in that grip.

" I would like to believe this, and in most part do. I am an optimist, and think that society progresses towards enlightenment and justice, though admittedly in fits and starts. It does seem, however, that in today's world the forces that are in favor of, for instance, women's and gay's equality, are on the same side that are leading to economic, environmental, and social progress.

And that the fundamentalist religious ideologies, which are invariably based on ignorance AND injustice, especially as relates to Sexism (there being MORE women than gays demographically), are clinging desparately and futilely to their ancestral power. Take my word for it.

I jumped into this discussion later tonight.

Question, has anyone yet brought up the issue of "sexual sin" that we were discussing on another thread?

This is one of the things about Christianity that has always angered me -- the relegation of a natural and normal human function as something that is mostly sinful, even evil, unless done within strict religious confines.




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