Welcome to Omgili,
Omgili ( Oh My God I Love It ;) is a search engine for discussions. With Omgili you can find answers and solutions, debates, discussions, personal experiences, opinions and more... To learn more about Omgili click here.
This is a complete preview of the discussion as it was indexed by Omgili crawlers. Use this preview if the original discussion is unavailable.
Click here to view the original discussion.
 |
|
 |
|
CyberKwoon • View topic - The Myth of Mixed Martial Arts
The myth of mixed martial arts
On November 12th 1993 an American no holds barred “NHB” martial arts tournament entered by the world’s top martial artists revolutionized martial arts forever, allowing the development of a new and superior fighting style, known as “Mixed Martial Arts” (MMA).
MMA was not encumbered by the traditions and ineffective techniques of traditional arts, finely honed and evolved using on those techniques that were proven to be effective in the ring.
At least that’s what the UFC publicity machine would like us to believe.
Under closer scrutiny however, the reality is somewhat different.
The first glaring falsehood is that the competitors were far from being the recognized leading exponents of their styles, the eight competitors were largely unknown in the martial arts world and their statuses were grossly exaggerated as part of the promotion (e.g.
Kimo Leopoldo was erroneously touted in UFC III as a "third degree Black belt taekwondo).
In fact the only leading exponent of his style was Royce Gracie a practitioner of a modified style of Japanese Jujitsu (which later became known as Brazilian Jui-jitsu) and one of the organisers, who went on to win three of the first four UFCs.
The “no rules” claim was also untrue as biting, ‘fish-hooking’ an opponent’s face, eye gouging and throat strikes were illegal, eliminating the favored techniques of many of the more popular traditional martial arts.
Competitors who broke the rules were fined £1,000 and would loose bouts by default.
As time went on more rules were introduced to protect the fighters, appease the legislators and make the fights (which rapidly turned into very dull wrestling matches) more entertaining.
Today these rules consist of
Commission approved gloves
Weight classes
Time limits and rounds
Mandatory drug testing
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent
No knees to the head of a downed opponent
No downward point of the elbow strikes
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head
No groin or throat strikes
No small joint manipulation
Serving to further eliminate the possibility of practitioners of traditional Asian martial arts ever winning the competitions, by disallowing practically all of their favored techniques.
The fights were held in an octagonal cage unimaginatively christened “The Octagon”, which was touted by organisers as having been specially designed by doctors and martial artists to create an enclosure that would act as a neutral arena to showcase skills of many martial arts disciplines.
However, there is little evidence to support this and the design of the ring appears to be based more around providing the optimal view for spectators and the television pay-per-view viewers.
As a result of the restrictions of the rule base and the environment, two specific sports martial arts styles became the favored mixed for the competitors.
Muay Thai, for the stand-up striking and Brazilian Jui jitsu, for the grappling.
Both had already been optimized for this sort of competition by focusing training on winning fights in environments similar to the UFC Octagon.
In a relatively short space of time and largely as a result of the revenues generated from pay-per-view television, UFC rapidly became a multi million dollar industry in the United States resulting in many martial arts schools in the US redefining parts of their training programs as MMA to cash in on the growing demand from fans to be able to say that they trained in the same styles as the UFC fighters.
Along with that a number of myths were passed on to the fans by the UFC franchise as “facts” supporting UFC as the ultimate testing ground for the effectiveness of martial styles in self defense situations, most prominent amongst these were:
95% of fights go to ground: this oft Quote: d statistic is based on speculation and the fact that the majority of UFC fights end up with the fighters on the ground grappling for a submission hold.
However, in the vast majority of situations were you are likely to defend yourself the ground is significantly less safe than the soft canvas of the Octagon and is more often than not full of hazards such as broken glass, furniture, paving stones etc add to that the fact that more often than not in a self defence situation you are likely to be facing more than one opponent and the favored strategy of Octagon fighters becomes a suicidal one in the streets
Techniques not allowed in UFC fights are ineffective: This one is also a favorite of UFC advocates on internet forums.
It is of course complete nonsense, and nonsense that can very quickly be dispelled.
A sharp blow to the eye effectively blinds your opponent for more than the duration of a fight, (rarely longer than 60 seconds outside the controlled environment of a sports competition), if you doubt the effectiveness of strikes to the neck and their importance in self defense, the safest option is to get somebody to slap you hard on the side of the neck, although excruciatingly painful you’ve got a good chance of picking yourself up of the ground within a couple of minutes suffering from little more than damage to your pride.
A downward elbow strike to the back of the neck or a blow to the throat however, is not something you should experiment with as there is a significant chance that you could suffer long term or even fatal harm as a result.
There are few men in the world lucky enough to not know the devastating effect of a blow to the groin
Fighters are not able to apply techniques that they have not practiced in full contact sparring: Although it is certainly true that in order to learn to fight effectively you need to have some experience of full contact fighting to learn how to deal with the “adrenaline dump” that will naturally occur in a self defense situation, many martial arts styles have supplemented this with other training methods allowing fighters to apply devastating or potentially lethal techniques in real situations and these training techniques have been tried and tested in real mortal combat over hundreds of years
Sparring is the only effective training method: As above, although sparring is an essential part of any fighters training other training methods have been developed in traditional martial arts and tested on the battlefield over hundreds of years and proven to be effective
To be a rounded fighter you need to spend a lot of time learning grappling: The reality is that it is impossible to address every possible situation unless you have a lifetime to do so and are unhindered by commitments to anything but your training.
A luxury not available to the many millions of individuals across the world who spend some time training in martial arts with self-defense in mind.
Much more important scenarios such as:
Being attacked by more than one opponent.
Being attacked by an assailant who is armed.
Being attacked from behind or from your periphery.
Being attacked in an hostile environment.
Being attack by an opponent with an unnaturally high pain threshold due to intoxication from alcohol or illicit drugs.
Being attacked by an opponent with a significant height, weight or strength advantage.
Are all scenarios that are typically not addressed in MMA training, which is completely focused on winning competitions in the very artificial environment of the Octagon.
The basic reality is that most traditional martial arts were developed for real combat in real self defence situations and the fact that there is often so little emphasis on grappling is because grappling is at best an unwise strategy to adopt in self defence situations and at worst could be a fatal error.
The only safe strategy for self defence is to focus on putting your opponent on the ground creating the opportunity to get yourself away from the threat to a place of safety.
Mixed martial arts training is optimised for winning competition fights not for defending yourself in the real world.
If you're aim is to be a competitive fighter then it is probably your best option, however, if your aim is to learn how to defend yourself against violence in your everyday life you should be aiming to find a good traditional martial arts school.
by Daniel Land.
Article date: August 2006.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
Yep and here's the complete list of fouls in the ufc as of right now.
1.
Butting with the head.
2.
Eye gouging of any kind.
3.
Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5.
Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8.
Small joint manipulation.
9.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13.
Grabbing the clavicle.
14.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
17.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21.
Spitting at an opponent.
22.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
24.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30.
Interference by the corner.
31.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
This indeed reduces the techniques to wrestle, punch and kick and take down.
And limits how you may carry those things out.
But it's not impossible for a traditional martial artist to train towards this venue if they would like to fight at that level of intensity.
I hear what you're saying about how the rule set negates a great deal of techniques that are a good chunk of quite a few traditional martial arts.
meh, whatta ya gonna do?
I guess we'll just have to keep listening to the nutriders moan and gripe about how kungfu doesn't work in the UFC.
Lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK, dont take this the wrong way but...
I love you guys!!
This has been needed to be said for such a LONG time.
Of course it probably will have little to no effect on the "born again" MMA crowd, but what the hell.
Excellent piece though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nice oration and support !
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hey, has anybody sparred with MMA peopel?
Like Bullshido throwdown?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know I'm going to start trouble, but I am not trolling, simply challenging your ideas.
Both sides of this argument have spent too long getting all high and mighty that neither side is willing to admit the other may have genuine points.
MMA just means 'Mixed Martial Arts, in which case Choy Lay Fut, Judo and even Wing Chun are MMAs.
UFC was not set up to allow the development of MMA, it was set up to promote BJJ by the Gracie family.
MMA as we know it today, (A mix of boxing, MT, BJJ and wrestling), was the unintended by product of what worked in that environment.
Rules in a competition?
Oh my god! the horror of it!
The rules are there as much as to protect the competitors as to ensure the ongoing viability of the franchise.
They don't want to be sued, and noone want to watch on TV someone being killed.
Is there a difference between promo hype and reality?
Is this the first time in reality you've ever noticed a difference between promo hype and reality?
Was the Rumble in the Jungle really in a jungle?
No, it was in a stadium.
I think I might sue Ali
Are you telling me that the only way TMAs can win a fight is with eye-gauges and fish-hooks?
Is there training so rubbish that they can't punch or kick straight enough, hard enough to win a fight that way?
With what most consider 'the basics' of martial training?
If that is reality, then they do deserve the bollocking they generally get.
And Daniel Land does his cause no benefit.
Likewise, if the only way you can win a fight is by either killing them or permanently causing them harm, in todays society you might well end up in jail...this is not a very clever SD strategy, irregardless of what has worked for centuries on the battlefields of wherever.
I'm sorry, I personally don't think TMAs are always the perfect creation that should never be questioned.
Everything has flaws and weaknesses, just like human beings.
Not realizing what they are is a weakness, but knowing what they are is actually a strength in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lost tiger i suggest that you read the traditional arts thread (last 2 pages anyway) to get an understanding of this thread....
No-one (at least me) is questioning the validity of MMA...
A point of view was presented in the other thread suggesting (read preaching) that MMA is tougher than real fighting....
Thisw post is in response to that...
Haveing said this....
You neglect to look at other parts of the post other than fish hooking and eye gouging...
Systems that utilise pinching and scraping, neck striking, head butting ect.
Does not infer that other methods are inferior...
Only different...
just check the other thread then maybe you will understand the context of this thread....
In isolation i would agree with you almost completely (you do judo?
Is punching and kicking part of Judo basics?)BTW!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oops, forgot some points....
MMA people who think they have the SD situations covered are just kidding themselves.
They will be vastly superior to most people, and through their strong physical and psychological training still be able to beat many TMA practitioners to a bloody pulp.
But, as has been mentioned, they train for a particular environment, and though there is a lot of cross-over between the two environments, they are not identicle environments.
Although they are not simply robots who will automatically do on the street what they do in the ring may find holes in their training.
Grappling?
I currently practice Judo which draws its techniques from TMAs and it has lots of grappling.
Actually the Kodokan guys got their arse handed to them on a platter by the Fusen-Ryuists,(A TMA lets note), and instead of looking for excuses as to why they didn't need newaza opened their arms to them.
I'm not aying that everyone has to be a Gracie, not at all.
But I would recommend to anyone that they know enough newaza to have half a clue if they find themselves in that situation.
Say you are attacked by a wrestler, or someone who did wrestling in highschool?
What are you going to do while he breaks your arms and his buddies kick your head in?
Tell him that he is at risk of rolling onto broken glass, furniture and your buddies who aren't there right now?
Wouldn't it be better to know at least how not to be taken down, or if you are how to reverse and then disentangle and get away, instead of flatly denying that it is anything you should ever have to consider?
Seems a little blinkered, that's all.
Full contact sparring is a great benefit for any training in my opinion.
However, if you say it is the only effective way of training I think that is just stupid.
I trained boxing, MT and have friends who have competed in K-1 and sure they spar, but it isn't the only thing they do.
People who say this probably don't train or just call rough housing with their mates in the back-yard 'training'.
Some of the techniques not allowed in UFC etc are ineffective.
Seriously, can you imagine someone in UFC pulling off an Aikido style mid punch wrist grab and throw againt 'Kid' Yamamoto?
Obviously not all, but if you go to many a dojo, dojang around the nation you'll see techniques that work great in theory, however when faced with an opponent intent on feeding your teeth down your throat just are a little harder to pull off.
Punching someone on the side of the neck does very little, I've been punched on the side of the neck many times when I did boxing and nothing happens, it's a touch annoying, but I didn't collapse in agony.
I think I might have missed what Daniel was trying to get at there.
Oh, and lastly back to grappling.
Look, not everyone in those competions is an ace grappler.
Mirco CroCop is from a boxing, then kickboxing background.
But he knows enough grappling to not get taken down and how to control things like pace, distance etc etc etc
Please people, lets not get so blinkered that whenever anyone challenges what you do or how you train that you switch your brain off and go into defense mode.
For the record I started training in boxing and MT, which I trained for about 3 years, then did some Bei Shaolin and later Choy Lay Fut and currently hugely enjoying Judo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry, Mut Sau I just posted above before seeing your post.
So some of it might seem a little strange.
I was unaware of that other thread, I come on here so infrequently.
Personally I think that there is a difference between the NHB environment and the reality of SD and MMA people should be big enough to admit that.
A lot of the young kids aren't, obviously, but many are.
My friend who was in K-1 when he came to Oz walked around saying 'scary.
Scary, people here are so big!' but when I told him that they should be more afraid of him he just said that he had no idea who was carrying a knife.
However, there is a huge SD benefit from studying MMA I'm not saying it is not a complete waste of time.
In my opinion the truth like most things lies somewhere in between.
I love the open mindedness of training and constant application of martial sports.
They are constantly competing within themselves to find a better way of doing something, there are very few idols that can't be toppled if you can find a better way of doing something for yourself.
Also, I understand where the myriad TMAs are coming from, training for a different sort of environment.
With a different type of heritage.
I'm not sure why there is the pinching a scraping rules.
I was reading those rules and have seen a lot of those things done in fights, Pride as I haven't seen much UFC in all honesty.
Sometimes the ref did something, but often not, (Well, if it was a Japanese fighter I'm sure they wouldn't do anything).
There might be medical reasons for not doing them, or maybe it might seems a little less TV friendly if you had 2 big tough guys standing in a ring scratching each other with their nails and pulling each others hair out >>joke<<
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lastly, of my massive diatribe We unfortunately don't do any striking, although atemi waza is part of Judo.
I have practiced with friends no-gi and using strikes though in my own time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Punching someone in the side of the neck would spread the force on a bigger surface area vs.
A chop. And when you are boxing and get punched in the neck...
Is the fist covered by a big glove?
I've seen what a chop can do...
So don't come with that 'annoyance' nonsense, because obviously it wasn't the persons intent to knock you out with the neck strike.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Don't come at me with that 'chop' nonsense, and I won't come at you with the 'punch' nonsense as he really said 'slap'.
"...get somebody to slap you hard on the side of the neck..."
I would have thought a punch would have been closer than a chop to a slap in terms of dispersed force, but whatever.
As I said from my experience I wasn't sure where he was coming from.
No need to call someones idea 'nonsense' when they have already said:
"I think I might have missed what Daniel was trying to get at there.
"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting thread.
Regarding the rules, well, I guess that means you can do things like peeing on the opponent, farting on the opponent, yelling at the opponent, licking the opponent, groping the opponent, tickling the opponent, and attacking the referee, right?
I mean, it's not listed on there, so am I right or what?
Anyway, I think the whole 95% of the fights go to the ground thing is overexaggerating.
That's not to say that there aren't any fights that go to the ground.
I just think that it's more the case of the fights ending with someone on the ground.
I have to point out what Daniel said in regards to little grappling in traditional martial arts.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Chinese martial arts contain grappling, do they not?
Also, we have the Japanese martial arts, which are big on grappling.
lost-tiger, don't be ridiculous.
You're making it out to be that "traditional" martial arts are overly reliant on the "dirty" techniques like eye gouging.
Overall, all martial artists should be open-minded and learn from the different martial arts styles.
Things like groundfighting shouldn't be overlooked though for a martial art like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to have just takedowns, groundfighting, and things like that is a little...eh...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
NP lost tiger... always like reading your viewpoint...
as for pride...
Far superior than UFC IMO...
The fact that there is kicking while on the ground (by mutual consent prior to bout ???) and some other little pieces that UFC lacks...
i love MMA...
Well at least the idea of it if not the application...
The concept of crosstraining to develop your primary skillset is a fantastic rediscover of the last decade or so....
MMA though can do without the propaganda just like TMA can do without the dogma...
Traditional arts need to be effective....
Hard to achieve unless you touch other skillsets....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|