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Another Child Discipline Thread - NeoGAF
So I was just out going to get the best BLT money could buy to my favorite local sub shop.
I walked in and waited to place my order behind this rather rough looking couple.
They were with there kids who I could already see would be a problem from the moment I saw them.
Anyway, they finished ordering I made my order and BS'd a bit with one of my buddies who works there.
Afterwords I was sitting down waiting for my sandwich to be done and had to endure the constant shrieking of the kids.
Apparently one of their kids lost at one of the games in the back and had to just burst out in tears right there.
You could tell the dad was getting agitated with the boy and was quickly just trying to leave.
Their order was done just before mine and I was sitting on a chair right next to the exit.
The father was walking his son out, who was doing that huffing, coughing, tear thing that kids do.
Right as they were passing through the door I heard the dad say to his son "Stop crying before I really make you cry." I didn't think much of it.
Shortly after I got up to grab my sandwich and headed back to my car.
On my way the family was still getting ready to leave in their minivan.
They were still fussing about and just before I left the mom threw her kid in the van and screamed "Don't you fucking yell back at me!" She smacked her and shut the door.
I've seen plenty of people whine about kids who don't get the proper treatment in public from their parents.
Was this it? Thumbs up or down for these parents?
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As long as they gave them a proper beating when they got home
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That's.. Horrible.
Goddam parents.
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I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
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THUMBS UP!!! UP YOURS PANSIES!!!
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Thumbs up! I bet that little girl didn't talk back to her mom.
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My mom smacked me around and it worked.
:,(
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Originally Posted by AtomskEater : My mom smacked me around and it worked.
:,(
Same.
I've totally learned to not do (or do) certain things because they've taught me the principles of consequences.
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Originally Posted by Stairs : I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
With younger children, it's the only punishment they'll understand.
Reason, social distancing and deprivation of luxuries are less effective because younger children don't think things through like adults do.
Plus, we're mostly Gen X or Gen Y and we've seen the effects of coddling by Baby Boomer parents in our peers (and consequently, the effects of coddling in the kids of Gen X'ers) and we don't like what we see - bratty, annoying, unruly kids disturbing the peace.
Obviously, there's a line between spanking and abuse, but people who equate the two go way overboard.
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Originally Posted by viciouskillersquirrel : With younger children, it's the only punishment they'll understand.
Reason, social distancing and deprivation of luxuries are less effective because younger children don't think things through like adults do .
Plus, we're mostly Gen X or Gen Y and we've seen the effects of coddling by Baby Boomer parents in our peers (and consequently, the effects of coddling in the kids of Gen X'ers) and we don't like what we see - bratty, annoying, unruly kids disturbing the peace.
Obviously, there's a line between spanking and abuse, but people who equate the two go way overboard.
Ding ding ding
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Originally Posted by Stairs : I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
Because most of us who are pro aren't like the people in the op.
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Originally Posted by Stoney Mason : Because most of us who are pro aren't like the people in the op.
Exactly.
It's amusing that some GAFfers seem to picture the parents in the OP in their heads when they hear the words 'corporal punishment'.
Either that, it seems, or a kid getting the crap beat out of them regularly.
The parents in the OP seem to be shitty parents, CP or no.
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Originally Posted by Stairs : I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
GAF users by and large lacks either the actual age, or maturity to be parents, so they actually have no experience with children.
Additionally, they only write or read threads about kids being annoying/bad, nobody cares when a kid is acting normally.
Ergo, GAF becomes very strident with the "beat your kids" mentality.
Also many in GAF lack "soft skills" and thus are wholly incapable of understanding that for the most part you can discipline a child without resorting to beatings or threats of beatings.
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Originally Posted by Stairs : I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
It's just like the circumcision debate.
Most people can't think outside of what their parents chose for them.
The idea that very young children only understand hitting is preposterous, and the kind of thing people used to say about "some women." The right kind of hitting can work without being abusive, but it's absolutely optional.
And it's easy to tell these parents are doin it wrong: incident--->vague threat---->further incident >reflexive smack in anger.
Most folks who are pro-CP are going to agree that swearing at and then smacking your kid until it does what you want isn't optimal.
The rest are all just going to say, "well my mom smacked me in the face and I'm fine."
Which is all well and good, and I'm glad you're fine, but like, that's just not an argument.
I know a woman who didn't have heat as a child in Maine winters and she turned out fine, but I'd still like to see other kids in Maine have heated homes.
Just because something happened and worked out doesn't mean we can't do better in the future.
fake edit: also what the guy above me said.
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Originally Posted by Ela Hadrun : It's just like the circumcision debate.
Most people can't think outside of what their parents chose for them.
The idea that very young children only understand hitting is preposterous, and the kind of thing people used to say about "some women." The right kind of hitting can work without being abusive, but it's absolutely optional.
And it's easy to tell these parents are doin it wrong: incident--->vague threat---->further incident >reflexive smack in anger.
Most folks who are pro-CP are going to agree that swearing at and then smacking your kid until it does what you want isn't optimal.
The rest are all just going to say, "well my mom smacked me in the face and I'm fine."
Which is all well and good, and I'm glad you're fine, but like, that's just not an argument.
I know a woman who didn't have heat as a child in Maine winters and she turned out fine, but I'd still like to see other kids in Maine have heated homes.
Just because something happened and worked out doesn't mean we can't do better in the future.
fake edit: also what the guy above me said.
I don't think anyone is advocating spanking as the only means of discipline for young children.
That would be counter-productive, since it will only teach a child that they shouldn't get caught (pain-avoidance reflex), doesn't enforce morality or encourage the development of the child's own conscience and is a reactive measure, taken only once a child has already misbehaved.
I do believe, however, that it is an essential part of the mix.
Punishment for certain behaviours needs to be shocking and memorable (though never harmful) to the child in order to impress upon them that the behaviour is unacceptable.
Punishment should never be dished out due to anger either and the child needs to be aware of why they are punished in the first place.
Anybody expecting to produce healthy children by only punishing them for the bad things they do and not postively reinforcing when they do behave is just as bad a parent as those who never punish their children.
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There's nothing wrong with harmless physical punishment alongside other means of discipline.
If my kid is able to do well without a beating, then that's awesome, but I'm not going to sit back and let my kid turn to shit when threatening to take away his Wii fails to work.
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Woah... I'm all for parents beating the shit out of their kids who act like little asshole demons in public.
I was just trying to take a different angle at these threads where parents actually do the right thing...
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Originally Posted by GenericPseudonym : GAF users by and large lacks either the actual age, or maturity to be parents, so they actually have no experience with children.
Additionally, they only write or read threads about kids being annoying/bad, nobody cares when a kid is acting normally.
Ergo, GAF becomes very strident with the "beat your kids" mentality.
Also many in GAF lack "soft skills" and thus are wholly incapable of understanding that for the most part you can discipline a child without resorting to beatings or threats of beatings.
This, totally. I can't believe some of you think hitting your kid, or even threatening to hit them is good parenting.
I was never beaten as a kid, and I can count the times I was yelled at on my fingers and toes.
I've never been a bratty kid, I was never sent to the office, I've never been suspended, I never skip classes.
I think I turned out okay imo, and my parents never beat me.
My father however told me how much he loved me all the time, and reminded me that he would take a bullet for me in a heartbeatt.
Loving parents >
Hypothetical GAF parents.
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Coming up with various ideas to escape the incoming beatdown are some of my greatest memories.
What better way to foster creative thinking in your kids than beating them
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Sounds like Jaydub.
You have to be real low class to curse in front of your children.
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Of course you have to keep in mind that not all kids will respond to things the same way.
Mom usually gave me a warning on stuff before it actually came to physical punishment (and repeating the same stuff went straight to physical punishment).
I hated getting spankings, so I didn't mess up much.
Some kids in my classes boasted about preferring spankings to getting grounded since "they were over faster".
So I don't think saying one is better than the other can be clear.
Originally Posted by whitehawk : This, totally.
I can't believe some of you think hitting your kid, or even threatening to hit them is good parenting.
I was beaten as a kid , and I can count the times I was yelled at on my fingers and toes.
I've never been a bratty kid, I was never sent to the office, I've never been suspended, I never skip classes.
I think I turned out okay imo, and my parents never beat me .
My father however told me how much he loved me all the time, and reminded me that he would take a bullet for me in a heartbeatt.
Loving parents >
Hypothetical GAF parents.
Then...
Who was doing the beating?
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Originally Posted by AtomskEater : Then...
Who was doing the beating?
Lol typo.
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Originally Posted by Igo : Coming up with various ideas to escape the incoming beatdown are some of my greatest memories.
What better way to foster creative thinking in your kids than beating them YES.
Beat your kids.
They'll have awesome stories to tell when they get older.
No Joke.
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Not all children will react negatively to corporal punishment over the long term.
On average kids will react more negatively to corporal punishment over the long term.
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When she was much younger as a punishment, I took my daughter's absolute favorite toy away.
To this day this ragged up tattered thing is still at arm's reach in her room.
The point being that when I took it away from her, she was upset about it for all of about 5 minutes.
After 5 minutes she carried on like it never even existed.
With that being said, every kid is different.
Again going back to my daughter, one thing we've found is that she has a very serious need for our approval/validation.
Thus if we are angry with her, not yelling but "I don't even know what to do with you right now" or disappointed with her, that will carry 1 times the weight that any spanking could ever carry.
We lucked out in that regard, and trust me, I am more than willing to dish out a good spanking if it's deserved..
You just have to meter what tools of discipline are effective with your child.
Of course a lot of that is determined by how your child is raised.
I've seen too many instances (first hand...
Close friends ) where the parents spoil the child 100% of the time when they're being good, and the first time they try acting up they spank or put in a corner or whatever..
And it is ineffective.
Well no shit.. you can't let the kid go off without any rules or discipline when they're behaving well and expect them to respond when they're behaving poorly :\
And really that comes down to it.
Discipline isn't something that only needs to be applied when they are behaving badly.
It needs to be in effect and enforced at all times.
Don't spoil them, always have ground rules down that they have to abide by, and have a tolerance level for stepping outside of those normal rules and stick to it.
Let them test you a little bit and get away with it...
This promotes free thinking and problem solving...
But know where those limits are and enforce those boundaries on a normal basis.
We have one of the most well behaved children we know..
Possibly THE most well behaved, and she has one of the happiest, most fun and caring dispositions ever also..
Yeah part of that is luck and genetics, but I also believe a large part of that is parenting.
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If it is possible to discipline your kids without hitting them, why would you hit them?
And in cases like the OP, I am always so confused.
A lot of the times to get their kid to stop crying, they hit them.
You know what? I've never seen that work.
Usually it's followed by a louder shriek.
edit:
Also when I think about it, I'm seeing a lot of parallels between this and the current torture debate.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think physical discipline and torture fall anywhere near each other in terms of moral outrage, but for example - people who advocate physical discipline and torture both say things like "It gets results", despite research showing that in reality the results from both are quite poor, and the alternatives are much better.
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Usually you dont have to use physical punishment unless the reason you dont want them doing certain things is something the child cant grasp.
Consistent and immediate physical punishment is effective, but random fits of rage against a child will utterly confuse and fuck them up.
The child has to know if I do this mom/dad are gonna do this basically.
Its nothing a parent should WANT to do , nor is it a cure all for every child.
Many kids just have to see a look, or hear a tone and they will be like ok forget it ill do something else.
Most people think of a parent going full force space marine on a kid when they think of a child getting spanked or whatever, but its not, one tap and a firm NO end most silly stuff.
However if a child is doing something dangerous and you cant put into words "uh you dont want to do that" you better get the point across that whether you are present or not , dont do *insert behavior*.
As the child gets older they dont need to get beat anymore though, the key is not the pain you caused them during the younger ages its the structure you provided, it wasnt just the beatings that make them mature.
You have to have rules, be consistent, involved, and connect with the child above all, you can be a drill instructor all you want, even the child knows if you care about them or not, thats the real discipline you teach them growing up, they need to know that no one cares about them more than their parents.
And that the discipline handed down to them physical or otherwise is because they are trying to steer you AWAY from consequences that can be, unfortunate, disastrous or even fatal.
Looking back , when i thought as a child even though my mother told me things as guidance, words dont compare to the realization you get when you wake up in your own place and realize you have to provide the structure in your own life.
More so they dont compare to the understanding that your parents just wanted to guide you , prepare you, to make your own decisions and take care of yourself.
Plenty of kids are just fine without having to get beat, but others are...hrmm resilient to words, grounding, being denied their possesions or activities.
Some kids just need their asses kicked sometimes, not because they are bad, but because they're kids , its the time they're supposed to make mistakes and be rotten.
But the parent cant let that continue cause its not so cute when they're adults being goofballs going out the world backwards.
Sometimes its what the doc ordered.
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With some kids, silence from a parent could possibly be enough to make them understand that what they did was wrong.
With some kids, there should be a fucking ass whoopin'.
Regardless of which method is required, there is no need to swear in front of your child.
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I'm all for a little spanking when it is warranted.
But you should never hit your kid when you yourself are angry.
You have to calm yourself down before you can discipline your kids.
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I agree with anything the Supernanny says.
I'd fuck 'er
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OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
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Originally Posted by Jokergrin : OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
lots of kids dont need to get beat, just take away what they like WHILE explaining to them what they did that is not acceptable and be consistent.
They have to know..ok if i do this im not gonna have my gameboy or tv or whatever.
The child isnt too far gone if they have to get disciplined, they are if they dont LISTEN.
Other things like chores/work to do around the house, excluding them from the family if they are acting out, make em sit alone and let them know they cant act like a nut without regard for anyone else.
Hell my mom made be write essays on friday nights or i couldnt go out on the weekends because i got a bad grade in a class once.
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Originally Posted by Jokergrin : OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
I started a thread about my kid on these forums a couple of weeks ago.
Someone recommended a book called, " Honey I Wrecked the Kids " and I picked it up from Amazon.com.
This book explains in great detail how punishment and reward systems generally don't work and establish a behavior pattern in people which causes depression and anxiety as adults.
Basically, the author explains:
Quote: : "Children everywhere have the same basic needs that must be fulfilled in order to develop a positive self-esteem and to build relationships that are cooperative, caring, and respectful.
Fulfilling these needs creates the foundations for constructive social living and mental well-being." (and scholastic success)
Every Child Needs To:
* CONNECT - I need to believe I have a place - that I belong.
* CAPABLE - I need to believe I can do it!
* COUNT - I need to believe I can make a difference.
* COURAGE - I need to believe I can handle what comes.
Concrete examples are given of how parents and teachers can insure that children are getting their Crucial Cs at home and school, along with ideas and tips to help implement them immediately.
The book talks about how kids are really good at understanding rules and figuring out creative ways to get what they want.
If they want attention and know that breaking a rule will get it for them, that's what they will do.
If they feel like they don't matter, then they might act out and start a fight to show that you don't have control over them.
I've started using the principles in the book and am already seeing tremendous improvements in just a week or two.
I just met with my son's teacher on Monday and he's saying the kid is making great strides.
He should be on the honor role by next report card.
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Originally Posted by Jokergrin : OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
I did above. It depends on the child, how they've been raised, what importance they place on various things, etc.
Some children will respond to a spanking, others you don't even need to go that far.
My only real problem with spanking is that 9 times out of 10 it only gets that far because at some earlier point the structure of discipline broke down.
The problem with this is that the spanking comes out of the frustration of the parent and nothing more, and is usually totally ineffective towards the child.
I think I've only ever spanked my daughter twice as far as I can remember.
One time was totally out of frustration on my part and did absolutely squat to reinforce what I was attempting to get across to her.
Absolutely worthless in that regard.
The second time if I remember right it was a relatively hard thwack, she just passed it off as "doh, REALLY shouldn't do that" and didn't again.
To be honest though I don't even remember if I tried another approach prior to that.
Regardless, those instances were probably at least 5 years ago or more.
Since then there has never been a need, and if you count the first instance as a complete mistake and suppose that there were other options in the second instance, it really comes down to that I probably haven't needed to spank her during her entire life...
I guess that thought kind of makes me regret the two times I did.
The problem is that not every kid is the same, not every kid is raised the same, and not every kid will react to measures of discipline the same.
This makes spanking, or any other method of discipline, impossible to be a cure all for every child and every circumstance.
The goal is to effectively discipline your child, and if spanking doesn't get the right message across to them, then doing it is just as "stupid" as putting them in a corner if THAT doesn't get the message across to them either.
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Originally Posted by Jokergrin : OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
waterboarding.
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In my experience, what children want the most is attention and validation.
Hitting is negative attention and hence not really discouraging at all.
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Originally Posted by Jokergrin : OK CAN SOMEONE BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME PLEASE!
How do you effectively discipline kids without resorting to physical punishment?
That counting trick seems to work on some kids.
Also the 'time out' thing kids seem to hate that.
but what if they don't work?
The 3 or 4 times I got smacked as a kid worked.
If it's not overused a smack should be a tool in a parents arsenal against little shit kids.
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Originally Posted by Stairs : I'll never understand why GAF is so pro-corporal punishment.
It blows my mind.
The behavior in the OP is not corporal punishment.
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Originally Posted by catfish : a smack should be a tool in a parents arsenal against little shit kids.
That's the thing that most people don't seem to get: kids are a blank canvas.
They are not shitty until a Jackson Pollock comes along and splatters some shit onto them.
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I don't think the "don't you fucking yell back at me" is appropriate.
Indirect threats that imply greater harm aren't too appropriate either.
Also, describe that last interaction better with more detail.
Originally Posted by Gallbaro : Sounds like Jaydub.
You have to be real low class to curse in front of your children.
Uhhhh.
What? I know there's an actual "JayDub" but I don't think this sounds like either of us, so...
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You overheard a mother yelling curse words at her kids and you have to ask GAF if they are bad parents?
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Originally Posted by JayDubya : Uhhhh.
What? I know there's an actual "JayDub" but I don't think this sounds like either of us, so...
I'm pretty sure I remember you telling a story about how you punched a baby once because it was acting too dependant.
I may have just made that up.
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Another Child Discipline Thread
uhoh.
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Originally Posted by viciouskillersquirrel : With younger children, it's the only punishment they'll understand.
Reason, social distancing and deprivation of luxuries are less effective because younger children don't think things through like adults do.
The first sentence is completely untrue.
Little kids respond very well to verbal disapproval, time-outs, and having things taken away.
You can't reason with them at all, but you can make it clear that they do a bad thing = things they don't like will happen.
Kids don't like timeouts and they don't like having their stuff taken away.
Those aren't luxuries to kids, they are THEIR WHOLE WORLD at the moment they want them.
True that you cannot reason, though.
Don't bother trying.
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Originally Posted by RubxQub : I agree with anything the Supernanny says.
I'd fuck 'er
Yup!
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My only point is that it *is* possible to discipline successfully without CP.
I'm a former daycare worker, and I would ask everyone who feels like it's impossible to discipline a kid without hitting them if they are OK with all of their kids teachers hitting their kids as well.
Some people are, and I at least respect that as internally consistent.
But when you've got a classroom full of two and three year olds and one suddenly becomes a biter, you don't have the ability to say "oh well he wouldn't understand if I explained it to him." The solution in this case was actually to put the guy on a ride-around truck.
Whassat? Well, he had pent up energy he didn't know how to express.
We put him on something, said "beep beep!" every time he zoomed by, and it had the added benefit of providing a few more inches of personal space buffer.
He stopped biting COMPLETELY, right away.
When you don't have the choice of CP I think you have to get really creative, but it benefits everyone.
I don't think it's terrible to hit your kids, but I do think it's optional.
My friend's little five year old just got spanked by her grandma for running out into an active parking lot, and I totally understand why that happened.
I don't think her grandma is a bad lady or anything.
I just think it's possible to handle it without hitting if that's your choice.
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Quote: : With younger children, it's the only punishment they'll understand.
That is factually incorect.
In a very small amount of children, sure.
But for the most part, if you're a good parent, you can punish your children without slapping or yelling "fuck" at them.
And over something like that?
Yes, the kid lost a game and cried.
Sometimes kids cry.
Shocking, I know.
And they cry over dumb things.
Threatening to hit them up because they're crying because they lost a video game is pretty much insane.
Parents disgust me.
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