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	A question to all atheists - Philosophy & Religion - OPEN FORUMS - Public - OUR - Message Board - Yuku "If God is the author and authority of all morality then what happens to society when it removes the author and authority of morality?" http://freethinkerspub.yuku.com/topic/6819?page=1 Interesting question, however, in my view, it fails from the start... Morality is pre-existent to the understanding of gods, as my experience with primitive native groups in South America shows. They have no gods, and the "spirits" the western "civilized" scholars had recognized in them, in reality are a projection of their own cultural bias, religion-based, and have nothing to do with what the natives understand. The natives recognize in every living thing what you might call "anima" (not in the Jungian sense), a basic self-consciousness (directed inward), of the live-being. And they recognize in them what you might call "soul" (not in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim-Buddhist sense), a consciousness of the live-being self, which is the begetter of the whole being and directed outwardly. In that sense, spirit is only a quality of the soul, focused on the activity supported by the material body's specialized structures (in the human being it would be its neurological system, although natives have little knowledge and interest about it, they, well, just are concerned with life). Their understanding recognize the complex interrelations between these aspects, and between those aspects present in different individuals. That's where "morality" is begotten. And the concept of "god" isn't included there. Period. My studies on history of the peoples, show me that "gods" are a later development and have more to do with the settlement of the people in "cities" than on any pre-existence of such concept. That is, God only appears in a sedentary village, and it is prompted by the rising of a social consciousness, a product which can be described appearing in the compost of "us" and "them". Interestingly, the begetting of the "God" idea also is contemporary and synchronous with the begetting of the concept of property. Before that only communal property was understood, and tools, shelters, even clothing and food, were shared by all. We can observe in our children, before they reach the understanding of property, how they share everything and don't mind about ownership. We the adults, are the enforcers of ownership, and who instill such understanding in our young, as we instill the "us" versus "them" sense of discrimination. As it stands and I can see it, Western understanding of morality is enforced by religion (with religion not being the origin of it), just as a tool of domination by an empowered sub-group of the community, in order to establish the preeminence of that sense of discrimination in their favor. When this entitlement to power is questioned, morality of that kind suffers, and vanes, however the basic morality of the species, submerged by the exercise of the powers that be, reappears and provides the guidance to the individual's actions. I hope I added something to think about... Frank rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	Frank, spoken or should I say, written like a true anthropologist. Religion is first and foremost about social control.


	ClaireDeLune, indeed I have taken enough courses on this subject of Anthropology, to qualify for a degree, but it didn't pay for my wandering around, so I had to work as Engineer. The best I had, was when I got to travel the Globe, paid by my assignments affording me to check Nature and People. Now I concentrate on gardening and writing... Mostly... albeit my wife manages to get me involved in her projects, being them theatrical productions or remodeling our home... Not that I mind! As I see it, Religion is the most pervasive factor of our human nature, contaminating everything we do... Unfortunately! rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	As I see it, Religion is the most pervasive factor of our human nature, contaminating everything we do... Unfortunately! Yes, but don't you thing that, as we become more educated, as science and technology can explain many natural phenomenons that were once attributed to god's will, we are slowly moving away from that mindset?


	Yes, if you take in account the leading edge of our society, now frankly a minority. The average high school student fifty years ago (Eisenhower administration in the US) was three to four times more educated and knowledgeable than the current crop. The educational system, chasing after fad theories, managed to lower the level of education attainable to ridiculous low standards. The result is uninformed generations who aren't even able to focus on the development of their own children. The exceptions just highlight the chasm between those who still get a decent education and the generality of the population ever closer to an illiterate level... A visit to your local high school will confirm this assessment. With ignorance, religions have a swell time brainwashing the people with factitious answers which amount to purposeful lies... And find a lot easier to brand the educated as evil. rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	Good point. Do you think relgion is trying to keep people from being educated? From what I have observed over the years, I was under the impression that it was the parent's fault; They don't give a damn about school and expect the teachers to do it all. This of course, give an edge to the children whose parents do care and therefore, get a great education. Less competition from them.


	Frank I have to agree with your comment about the current kids knowing nothing. I cannot believe the poverty of education in the so-called developed world today. My son even refers to us as the last of the clever people, but we are not we just had a darn good grounding at school. Then we got all these educational theorists that somehow managed to produce generations of kids that they claimed were educated in the social sciences and more rounded people. What a load of codswallop it all is!! I could go on about about lack of discipline in classrooms today but that would be another divergence. The trouble is half- educated people are so easily brainwashed and gullible. In other words--- suckers! Last Edited By: colette3652 03/05/09 01:34 AM. Edited 1 time.


	... now, to posit that they purposefully promote ignorance, I wouldn't go that far... However looking at their curricula (religious schools) I'm not so sure... Lack of discipline is a symptom, not the problem... Looking at the issue of purpose, I'd suggest to look at the genesis of religions... "Gods evolved from a social consciousness... And I said, the social consciousness grew up from the compost of "us" and "them". We have to put aside our current understanding of what a "God" is, to glimpse the understanding of the primitive villages... At the beginning it was not a God, but anything that focused the communal attention... Natural phenomena, geographical features in their environment affected by such phenomena, relationships and/or similarities between natural events and living things... Like the oldest association known to us, that of the snake and the lightening. Also a village feature, usually something picked up from the social consciousness, preference for a colored ribbon, a collected item by the villagers, which might have evolved into something equivalent to a flag or banner... Stories of accomplishments of older members or deceased members... With time, they evolved into mighty beings (giants?) who left but might come back when conditions would be right (Anunnaki?). All those things didn't become religions in a transforming moment. It took centuries of social evolution until we arrived to the local God representing the consciousness of that individual community. Integration of separated communities into a common social body gave birth to pantheons of Gods, where preeminence among them reflected preeminence of the constituent communities. Along the way, some individuals discovered good uses for this evolving concept, and others discovered spurious uses for it... Unfortunately the last became more universal... Consequence of the inhumanity of the evolving humanity: religions were born. The good uses revolved around basic morality and species solidarity, the bad uses formed the foundation of power structures unjustified by our own nature. The more we can learn about our nature, less influence is given to religion and more to our species morality, where survival is for ever linked to social solidarity. As I see it, we are witnessing a transforming period (at least the beginning) in the life of humanity, where a socio-political-economic paradigm, that of the Capitalism, is dying and we haven't seen yet what's to replace it. Religion will go out with Capitalism, just because the critical transformation will require that emergence of our species social solidarity and a replacement of our current morality by a new one linked, as I said, to that social solidarity. Food for thought..." ... Just don't expect to see it brought up at any school, public or otherwise... (I posted this at freethinkers pub.) rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	You certainly have a good understanding of cultural evolution. I am impressed. As for "... Just don't expect to see it brought up at any school, public or otherwise ..." I will not hold my breath LOL On a slightly different topic, do you believe there is a universal truth besides: living being live and then die? I think not, there are not universal truth, only interpretations.


	On a slightly different topic, do you believe there is a universal truth besides: living being live and then die? I think not, there are not universal truth, only interpretations. W ell, the issue of Universal Truth is mostly an issue of belief. Only theists posit the existence of a universal Truth, which they equate to the essence of their deity. In our consciousness, the issue is mot. Because the essence of the consciousness is the knowing. Which shouldn't be confused with knowledge. This is a subject that I haven't taken in depth, using an "intuitive" knowing instead. But it is worthy to look at… First at all, the idea of Universal Truth implies the pre-existence of a consciousness to know it. Then we have the problem of understanding which and what is the consciousness that knows… Our mind, limited in its capacity to grab the expanse of the Universe within its perception, won't and cannot perceive such ultimate Universal Truth, unable of incorporating a whole universe into its focused (therefore limited) consciousness. Is there, in the realm of our whole consciousness, any level capable of comprehending such Universal Truth? Our mind cannot answer that nor can comprehend it if an answer comes from our whole consciousness… So we are in a conundrum. At best, within the tools that our mind provides, we can glimpse the possibility that such Universal Truth might exist, however, the nature of the Universe makes that Universal Truth ephemeral from one instant to the next. That which was the Universal Truth an instant ago, no longer is Universal nor True the next instant. All we get, always, is fleeting truths which apply to portions of the Universe and at a given time but aren't necessarily valid elsewhere or anytime. Even the past, and its consequences, changes with our present, and becomes a different past as we move into our future. Does our whole consciousness change, like our mind can change? Indeed it does. It grows and changes with that growth, as it changes also by the interaction with the other consciousnesses with whom it is related in our web of life. Even our concept of body is an ever-changing truth, and the inescapable link between our consciousness and our flesh evolves as we develop from zygote to adulthood to death… and so are the characteristics of such consciousness of the human Self. What happens at death? Consciousness without a living and supporting biological flesh cannot exist. But it doesn't follow that after the physical life of the body ceases, that the being's consciousness self-destructs. Most likely the consciousness which is after all a pattern of energy, merges into the field formed by all the consciousnesses present in the Universe. The individual awareness of our consciousness no longer is possible and only remains the "we". In that sense there is always a communal consciousness which is the envelope containing all the individual living consciousness and all the past consciousness merged together. So, we can say that we don't die as a consciousness, and the living generation contains us after our individual death… We can find in the ancient sages many glimpses of this outcome. But not in the thinking of Abraham's brethren. Because the religions which sprout from the mythical Abraham weren't concerned with our own human nature, but with the exercise of power amongst us, under the trickery of a covenant. So the Jewish brand doesn't pay attention to souls but concerns itself with obedience and preeminence, thus the belonging; The Christian brand doesn't care about obedience, all can be forgiven, but concerns itself with a mythical Heaven attainable by the exercise of obedience or creative repentance, and the Islamic brand concerns itself with pragmatic obedience geared to world wide domination, Heaven being only a lure for the unaware, and a cheap promise for rewards… As you can see, all are the same and one single fixed goal… despite the apparent differences… (LOL, perhaps there is, after all, a Universal Truth: Religion = Obedience!) ... We can and should explore further this subject, but this start should suffice for now… Food for thought... rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	Frank, " Most likely the consciousness which is after all a pattern of energy, merges into the field formed by all the consciousnesses present in the Universe. The individual awareness of our consciousness no longer is possible and only remains the "we". I can't resist saying that this of course reminds me of Jung's collective unconscious. I am a strong believer in a universal consciousness that we can tap into for advice if we really try. I am not in any way being flippant here.


	... think on Jung's proposition... He was on the right track here, too bad he came short and didn't quite make it, breaking free of the religious paradigm he grew up in... And yes, we can tap it for advice... Does require some training as I said earlier, talking about visualizations... rommey "journeyer, there is no road, you make your road as you walk"


	Well all I can say is that there are wheels within wheels in my personal life right now.I wait to see what surprise each day brings me but on the other hand I am working hard aiming for the future I not only want but will have.


	I'm reading The Power of NOW by Eckhart Tolle. I find it very interesting. It fits with some real life stuff more than religion ever did. I do believe that our mind is much more powerful than we know.

Discussion Title: A question to all atheists - Philosophy & Religion - OPEN FORUMS - Public
Title Keywords: question atheists Philosophy Religion OPEN FORUMS Public Message Board Yuku

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A question to all atheists - Philosophy & Religion - OPEN FORUMS - Public - OUR - Message Board - Yuku